Author Topic: H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy  (Read 743 times)

Offline guttboy

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« on: May 07, 2003, 06:24:07 PM »
Hi Guys....

Skuzzy spoke with you today and got the H2H setup by enabling ports 2000-5000 on my computer.  That works GREAT...my only problem is that when guys are in the H2H map I have setup we cant use vox.

I am using liteflite and had Artlaw run an identical map.  His vox works and in my room it does not.

Any clues as to why it wont work in h2h?????
MA vox works fine.

Regards....

Offline JCLerch

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2003, 05:58:55 PM »
Guttboy,

This won't help you, but I thought I'd mention I'm having the same problem and same symptoms

Config
Cable modem -> linksys -> WinXP static Ip 192.168.1.2

I setup up Linksys port forwarding for UDP & TCP ports 1025 - 65535 (out of desperation) , no joy on VOX

After that didn't work, I put the Xp box's Ip in the DMZ host entry, still no joy on VOX.

Only other clue I have is ppl are telling me that I don't have a ping rate in the selection page, but they can connect, download map, play along, and text chat, just no VOX!

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks
James Lerch

Offline guttboy

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2003, 07:22:42 PM »
James,

Someone has to know the answer out there.  I have enabled the ports 2000-5000 so that the game can be played but alas no vox.

Hopefully someone can help us out!

Good Luck....

SKUZZY???????

Offline Skuzzy

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2003, 08:29:19 PM »
Try running your room with your cable connection directly connected to your computer and see what happens.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline JCLerch

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2003, 10:07:42 PM »
Skuzzy,

I'd could try that, and it would probably work, but I have 3 web servers, a unix box, and 2 wireless laptops on this lan asides from my workstation.  Plus the thought of pluggin my MicroSlop XP workstation directly into the Inet sends shivers down my spine ;)

I'm a pretty good network guy, and I know my way around an IP stack.  I setup some sniffers and didn't see any obvious Incomming/Outgoing packets getting dropped, or the NAT not rejecting data from the Lan/Wan....  

If I knew a little more about the tech behind VOX, I might be able to figure out what's up.  Got any links handy?

Thanks

Offline JCLerch

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2003, 01:11:42 AM »
Here's another idea I tried that still didn't work.

Turned on the UPnP service on the Linksys Router
Installed XP's UPnP network service

WinXP now shows my Linksys BEFSR81 router in "My Network Places"   (Isn't that special!)

After reading the white pages on Direct Play Voice (assuming that's what you guys use for Voice control), I saw a mention on UPnP, and that during Direct Play peer to peer, UPnP would be invoked if possible to auto-configure the router.  

In any event, no joy on VOX.  

Here's what I still get for the following situations

No Port mappings: (with & without UPnP)
   Main Arena, Dueling, training, and Special events all work as advertised.
   I can join H2H sessions, and VOX is fine
   I can NOT host a H2H session

Manual Port mapping for UDP/TCP 2-5K or put Priivate IP in DMZ:
   Main Arean et all work as before
   I can join H2H session, and VOX is fine
   I can HOST an H2H session, but NO VOX

This is starting to turn into one of those "OK, so it won't work, but WHY won't it work"  Answer: "Its your Firewall" My Responce: "What about the firewall makes it not work" :)

I once spent WAY to many hours learning all the ins and outs of FTP servers using non-standard ports, Firewalls, and when (or when not to) use the PASV command.  I finally came to an understanding of how all that worked, and in some cases why it didn't!  

FYI,

Offline Skuzzy

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2003, 07:20:27 AM »
We do not use DirectPlay.  I suggested taking the router out of the loop just to verify it may be the problem.

It seems some Linksys routers work and others don't, which points to possible firmware issues regarding the NAT implementation and UDP.

Here is my thought.  If you have 2 computers behind a NAT, which attempt to establish a UDP connection from the same port number, it may fail.  As UDP is stateless, there is no way for the NAT router to build a table back to the originating system, due to the same port being used.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline guttboy

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2003, 09:14:49 AM »
Skuzzy,

Tried taking the router out of the loop and no success.

VR,

TG12

Offline JCLerch

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2003, 03:15:28 PM »
Skuzzy,

During a few minutes of 'High Pucker Factor' I plugged my naked XP workstation directly into the cable modem after disabling file and print sharing and turning on DHCP (BTW, port 135 & 139 still had listeners even after rebooting, Freaking MS products!)

Setup the H2H session, got a squadie to join, and YUP Vox works!  

OK, so its something to do with the firewall,  before I get on the phone with Linksys, I need a little more info.

The below is all in regards to H2H hosted sesions

#1 I see a TCP session for each player, I assume this is for managment of "where" each player is, and all their pertinent data.  Is this TCP session also used for Text communications?

#2 For VOX, UDP is the protocol used I assume.  For the moment, lets just say a simple VOX transmission fits inside one UDP packet.  Since we don't establish a session with UDP, my voice is digitized, the data is assembled into a UDP datagram with  a Source port, Destination Port, Length, UDP checksum followed by the data.  For each user on the channel, a copy of the UDP packet is sent to them via IP.  

At this point, lets assume just 2 players, me and guttboy both with NAT firewalls.  I've keyed the mike, AH made the UDP Packet, addressed it to guttboys IP, and off it goes out of my Computer.  Now, lets follow this IP/UDP packet, and see if I got this idea under control.

#1 The packet leaves my computer with a destination of guttboys public IP
#2 The packets first stop is My Nat, where my Nat strips out my  Private IP addy from the Source IP field,  and replaces it with the Nats public IP, then forwards the packet
#3 The packet traverses the interenet
#4 The packet arrives at guttboys Public IP, where his Nat receives it.
#5 His Nat looks at the UDP destination port, compares this to the port forwarding rules,  and based on the rules decides to forward it to guttboys private IP.
#6 guttboys NAT, strips out his Public IP from the Packet destination IP field, and replaces it with his Private IP, and forwards it to his computer.
#7 His computer gets the IP packet, where the AH listener (hopefully listening on the right port number) digests the data and converts it back into Audio.

Seems pretty simple, the only place I can see this breaking down is "How does AH Know guttboys IP address?"  As I see it there are only two answers:

#1 AH knows guttboys IP address based on the Source IP address found in the on going TCP session.  If this is true, The source IP will be his PUBLIC IP.

#2 AH knows guttboys IP address based on data encapsulated inside the TCP session data, in which case AH might be saying guttboys IP is his PRIVATE IP, in which case the addressing will get all screwed up.  


Now, to totaly confuse stuff, I really wonder how this works when playing in the main arena...  Since I never setup any port forwarding rules on my NAT during Main Arena play, just how could a UDP packet make it all the way to my private IP?  Obviously something else is going on, Maybe its going through the TCP session, Maybe some type of UDP 'Session' is established, even though UDP should be connectionless, implying that no session exists, I can image that my NAT is setting up some type of UDP sesion table, and forwarding the incomming UDP packets based on this sesion table..  

Somethings getting screwed up, I just wish I knew exactly how all this worked! :)

Offline Skuzzy

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2003, 03:53:27 PM »
There are things I simply cannot discuss in regard to how our network code works.

But let's make it generic.  You made some assumptions about NAT.

First of all, a NAT router has to build a translation table internally so it can track what computer on the private side gets an incoming packet.
The translation table consists of the MAC address of the local private system and a port number.  The router replaces the source address of the outbound packet with its own IP address.

This is how the packet will get routed back to the router.

In some NAT routers, the router will supplant the port number as well, but some don't.  I would be surprised if the Linksys routers did this.

Bottomline is this.  If it works without the router, but does not work with the router, then I would have to say the router is either not able to handle UDP NAT packets or is not setup correctly, or has a bug in the firmware.
I cannot go into more detail about how our code works.


Guttboy, something is blocking a port or your computer is flat out of resources (I doubt the latter).  Make sure everything is shutdown on your computer that can be shutdown and try it again.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline streakeagle

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2003, 04:08:12 PM »
Linksys 4-port router most certainly has problems...

Not only can I not support HtH VOX on my home computer, but the one at work has issues with allowing our server to provide FTP support to our Atlanta office. We actually had to go back 3 firmware versions to get it to work at all, and of course we have all the problems the later versions were supposed to fix :mad:

Linksys PCI ethernet cards also caused problems with hosting HtH games on my 4 computers at home. Their tech support could only suggest things I had already tried. I switched to D-Link PCI cards and everything worked great.

So, overall, I am not the biggest fan of Linksys at this point.
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Offline JCLerch

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2003, 04:57:30 PM »
Skuzzy,

Here's some additional interesting data I've found.

Setup

Cable mode -> Linksys Nat -> Packet Sniffer -> Xp Host

In the above config, I have NO NONE NADA outgoing or incomming UDP packets while trying to transmit to someone on VOX channel.  AH is supposed to use UDP for VOX, YES??  

I have a bunch of TCP packets flying back and forth between all the H2H connections, but the pattern of flow doesn't seem to change when VOX toggled (IE Number of packets, nor size of packets seems to be changing..)

Going to go back to the direct connect config, and re-sniff for UDP packets...

Offline JCLerch

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2003, 05:28:19 PM »
OK, this is really Odd :confused:

When Direct connected to Cable modem, my XP box hosting H2H generats LOTS of UDP traffic to/From IP addys of ppl I'm speaking with on VOX (which works).  The Traffic is directly related to WHEN the mike is keyed..

When Behind firewall NO UDP traffic is Ever generated (Ok, on a recent scan, I did get one UDP packet for a DNS query...)

So why would AH not even TRY and generate UDP traffic when behind firewall?  Very weird..  I might understand if AH were producing Mal-formed UDP traffic, but its not making ANY UDP traffic.....  

ALso, with AH producing NO UDP traffic, I'm less likely to suspect the NAT, since the NAT can't NAT something its not getting.....


Very weird IMHO....
« Last Edit: May 27, 2003, 06:19:19 PM by JCLerch »

Offline JCLerch

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2003, 06:33:11 PM »
Skuzzy,

I understand the need not to speak about your network code!  

Let me ask this, has Anyone ever been able to host an H2H session WITH VOX, while behind a NAT Firewall and using an IP in the Private Range (192.168.x.x)?

If so, has anyone been able to do it on an XP home edition machine?

Thanks,

Offline JCLerch

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H2H Vox...HELP PLEASE Skuzzy
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2003, 10:11:49 PM »
Skuzzy,

One last bit of info before I call it a night.

With the firewall in place and no-port mappings AND while in the Main Arena, I have UDP packets flying back and forth from AH and Myself while VOX keyed.  

So it would seem in this case the router/firewall can handle UDP traffic...

Really weird :)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2003, 07:02:10 AM by JCLerch »