Badly model of firing in G10

[garrido]

      Por favor RAM, traduce ( o te capo cuando vengas a zaragoza XD ):

            No se si es una mala apreciación mia, lamentablemente no grabe este combate, ni recuerdo el nombre del piloto, pero me da la impresion que el modelo de tiro del G10, (no he probado otros Bf109)es deficiente.
Me explico:
En un combate contra un Zeke ayer en la arena, obserbe impactode tanto de 13mm como de 20mm en la panza de un Zeke (famoso en todo el pacífico por su fragilidad) desde una distancia inferior a 200 yardas, y no paso nada, observe que habia disparado 30 balas de 20mm. por lo menos, creo que 5 minimo dieron en el blanco (seguramente mas, la distancia era muy pequeña), en una segunda rastudmuffina con deflexion a 200/300 yardas volvi a alcanzar al zeke, vi impactos seguros de 13mm y posibles de 20mm, pero tampoco se apreciaron daños, realice una tercera pasada, esta vez desde las 6 del zeke, y desde 200 yardas de nuevo, y con numerosos impactos de 13 y 20mm se le desprendieron las superficies de control, gaste aproximadamente 60 balas de 20mm para derribar un zeke, estoy seguro que impacte mas 20, eso es correcto? el modelo de disparo esta mal?
otra cosa, me parece que el G10 entra con suma facilidad en black out, a poco que se tira del joy, se entra en black out, con lo cual es dificil realizar una maniobra a media/alta velocidad. Puede que sea una apreciación particular, por eso pido, que si alguien tiene o a observado los mismo problemas que me lo diga, y si es asi, que HT corriga eso, o si esta bien que me lo diga, pero recuerdo que los pilotos de cualquier nacionalidad decian que les gustaba la facilidad que tenia el 109 para subir o picar en gran angulo a cualquier velocidad, coso que los otros aviones no podian hacer igual de bien, si el 109 real tuviese esos, a mi entender fallos, ni el 109 hubiese podido realizar esas subidas ni Hartmann hubiese tenido 352 derribos .
gracias a todos,
Gracias RAM
 

[RAM]

Hummm...this is getting old    

"please, RAM, translate, or I'll cut your nuts when you come to Zaragoza (   we have a con there next week).

I dont know if its only a sensation I have, I'm afraid I have no film about it and can't recall the pilot's name, but I have the feeling that the fire modelling of the 109G10 (I haven't tested other 109s) is deficient.

I'll explain it:
Yesterday in the arena, in a fight against a Zeke, I saw impacts of 13mm and 20mm on the Zeke's belly (famous in the pacific for its fragile airframe), from a distance under 200yards.Nothing happened. I had fired at least 30 cannon rounds, and at least 5 impacted on the target (probably many more, as I was so close to him).

In a second deflection shooting, at 200/300 yards I hit the Zeke again, I saw confirmed 13mm impacts, and possible 20mm impacts. Still there was no apreciable damage. I did, still, a third pass, this time I got his six, and from 200 yards and with a lot of impacts of 13mm and 20mm he lost control surfaces.

I spent more than 60 20mm rounds and I am pretty sure that I hit with more than 20 rounds. Is that right?. Is the firing model correct?.

Another thing, I have the feeling that the G10 makes the pilot suffer a blackout too easily. At medium/high speeds, with few stick input you blackout making maneouvers next to impossible. It may be a wrong feeling from me, that is why I ask people to tell me if they experience this same problem, and if it is true, please HT put it right.

I recall pilots of any country telling that they liked the 109's performance in climbingand diving in big angles, at any speed, thing that other planes couldn't match.

If the historical 109 had this (from my point of view) bugs, nor the 109 could've done those steep climbs, nor Hartmann would've had 352 kills.

Thanks all.
Thanks RAM (hehe no hay por que melon...te he tenido q suavizar un pelo el mensaje, no mucho, pero algunos por aqui se pican con facilidad, lo se por experiencia    )

Supong
"

Answer from RAM:

Supong, the thing is easy. MG151/20 cannon is IMO grossly underrated in this simulator. Right now,as someone post and tests showed it, Fw190A8 had similar hitting power at 300 yards with 4 20mm mausers than a P51 with 6 50cals in convergence. I have argued this a lot of times for no result, other than being called whiner. I am sure that with a firepower of 6x12.7mm Fw190As were as good buff hunters as they were (   ).

Other thing you must have in mind is-A6M5b Zero was not an A6M2, it had self sealing tanks and strenghtened airframe.

Still I agree with you, with 20 rounds of cannon the Zeke should've been shredded long before he seems he did.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-15-2000).]

[Pongo]

mg151/20 is fine.
Zekes do blow up easy.
50 cal was a spectacular weapon in the american and british WW2 fighters, why should it be any different here.
When you fire the cowl guns with the nose 20mm, you really cant be sure which hit sprites you are seeing.

[Fishu]

Pongo,

Though, I tested few guns on those target drones in off-line and MG151/20 and ShVAK were far weaker than Hispano / 20mm M2.

Shortly you can say it like this: if Hispano rips part from the fighter with 1-2 hits in that same part, MG151/20 and ShVAK does that with 2-5 hits.

I don't even know exactly how many times I tested this again again and again, but it must be already 40 times by now with those 3 guns... as I did make some more testing after first series.

I wonder if N1K2 cannons are still as strong as they were (900 yds hit = damage), I got to test this also few tens of times.

and well.. .50s are about as strong as MG151/20 per hit (plus .50 has better trajectory and higher ROF)
I must say that .50s and Hispano / 20mm M2 guns are the best in AH, most destructive by far.

..and soon you'll get some MA tests as I'll get those moneys out and start play & pay for AH after few weeks/months of no AH. (as how you wish to call 9 days during 1.03 and months break before)

[LJKkratz]

If you see pictures of the cartidges from 151/20s up against cartridges from hispanos, you can see a very large difference...  the hispano round dwarfs the 151/20.  Same with the .50 cal browning vs. the 151 13mm...  I still think the 151/20 does more damage than the 50, but it is definitely harder to hit with.

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LJK Kratzer
Geschwader Kommodore, LuftJägerKorps

www.luftjagerkorps.com

[RAM]

we dont speak about hitting chance, we speak about damage.

Sure, Mausers feel EXTREMELY weak, IMO.

[Vermillion]

Garrido:

#1) All pilots and planes have the same blackout model, which is based upon the number G's (multiplier of graviity) you pull. So its not only the 109 that suffers.

#2) Realize that the 20mm cannon and the 13mm machine gun have different ballistic trajectories.  So if you were firing all the guns at the same time, you may have only been hitting with the 13mm, and not the 20mm like you thought. This is especially true when firing from long distance, or under high G load's (hard turns).  This is the only thing that I can think of, that would explain what happened to you.

RAM, come on bud be realistic.

The .50's do not have anywhere close to the power of the MG151/20mm.  The tests you are refering too, is Fishu firing at drones, and taking down his impressions of what it takes to kill them. Not exactly what I would call scientific or conclusive. And even then his tests are of the Hispano 20mm versus the MG151/20, not the .50's, at least according to his posts I have read.

The only scientific tests (in a controlled environment firing at a hanger and counting rounds expended) I have seen of the guns showed that the MG151/20mm was 2 times more powerful than the .50 caliber, and the Hispano M2 was 2.5 times more powerful than the .50 caliber. Not exactly the results you keep stating as proof.

I fly German Iron myself (G10 with gondolas), and to me the Mausers only feel weak when compared to the Hispano MkII, and then not by much. I would say "weaker" not "weak", totally different thing.

The cold hard facts of the matter are this. The Hispano MkII is and should be more powerful than the Mauser MG151/20mm. The Browning .50 MG is and should be more powerful than the Mauser MG131/13mm.

But to start claiming that the Browning .50's are more powerful than the Mauser MG151/20mm is pure "Luftwaffe-babble".

If you have hard proof, from controlled tests, please share it with us, and lets see if the results show anything.

But to continuously keep claiming that the "Luftwaffe guns are PORKED, because the Americans are more powerful" without any proof or reasoning, just makes people disregard more and more of what you say, and take you less seriously overall.

And thats not an insult, its advice.  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 09-15-2000).]

[GunfighterIII]

Wow, and I wish the aircraft were tougher or the ammo did LESS damage.

First, You really think that historically a 109G6 could actually take both wings from a P-47D with 3 guns? Two of them being rifle caliber no less.  Personally Id like to have the ability to try to fly a damaged aircraft home once in a while.  Im new to this game, and don't fly it well, but every time I've been waxed its been catastrophic airframe failure, Ie wings shot off, Tail shot off, Fuse shot in two.  What ever happened to empting the guns, the Jug flys on with a hell of a lot of holes in it but still living up to its reputation of being a great damage absorber.  Watching the history channel, you see A8's with 6 20mm cannons on it punching the hell out of a 17's engine, sure pieces come off but it doesn't explode with in 3 seconds of being under fire.  Im under the impression that if I went on a bomber killing mission, I might be able to come back with 10+kills from 1 default armed A8, when 2 or 3 should actually be closer to historical.

GFIII

[Downtown]

I watched my "Gun Camera Footage of World War Two," video, and it has about 15 or 20 minutes of LW gun camera footage (No IJN?).

Anyhow, the U.S. Planes were standing up fairly well under WITHERING FIRE from the LW guns.

I think they slowed down the footage and you can probably count, and tell the diffent impacts from the MG to the Cannon.

It really does look terrible, and you can tell just where the LW Pilot is aiming, I mean, he goes for the tail gunner in a B-17, then the Belly, then the Waist gunner on one side.  Then the #1, then the #3 engine.  I estimated from 50 to 75 hits of what I believe to be 20MM.

I don't recall offhand, but I believe there is some footage of Ponies and Jugs getting shot up.  I think they start burning eventually, and then explode, or just spin out of control.

Then there is the U.S. Footage, and how the B-17s gunners ever hit anything is a mystery to me.

The Footage from the P-51, P-47, F4U-1Ds, P-40s and F6Fs is very telling, the U.S. .50 was a devistating weapon.

I would say there is footage of planes being shot down from 200 to 800 yards pretty regularly.  Many of them at 400 yards and greater.  You can pick out when the rounds start impacting on the target, you see hit sprites, you see pieces of the target come of, you see bullets cut through the top surface of wings, and start the wing fuel cells leaking.  Then the fuel ignites.  You see the canopies get knocked off, it is terrible, it's like they are taking a chain saw to them.

There is footage of a Macchi that folds in half behind the wings.

There is footage to demonstrate that IJN/IJA planes did burn much easier as compared to U.S, LW, or Italian aircraft.

Before you complain about gunnery, get this video, available on Amazon dot com.

Gun Camera Footage of World War Two, from Avion Park.

Also, consider packet loss/rubber bullets.

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"Looks Mean as Hell! Clare Lee Chenault.
 
When?
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.

[This message has been edited by Downtown (edited 09-15-2000).]

[Downtown]

Hartmann got his 352 kills in 11,000 sorties.

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"Looks Mean as Hell! Clare Lee Chenault.
 
When?
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.

[This message has been edited by Downtown (edited 09-15-2000).]

[Downtown]

Be nice if HT could model the sprites so you could tell a cannon hit from the MG hits.

It looked like you could tell on the video to me. Little Sprite=MG, BIG SPRITE=CANNON.

Click Here to order the video.
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"Looks Mean as Hell! Clare Lee Chenault.
 
When?
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.

[This message has been edited by Downtown (edited 09-15-2000).]

[flakbait]

Downtown, you are WAY off. 11,000 sorties? According to Luftwaffe Fighter Aces, Hartmann flew 1,425 confirmed sorties and had a strike rate of 4.05 sorties per kill. This totals up to 352 confirmed kills. No single pilot ever flew 11,000 sorties in combat. A whole unit most likely, but not one man.


Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School

[Jerry B]

I don't know if this is the same video you mention, but there's a Quicktime clip here (scroll down):
 http://www.planestuff.com/planestuff/lufguncamfoo.html

This is vs bombers, but there's one clip vs a P-51B.

[Downtown]

Flakbait,

You are probably right, the number was off the top of my head.  I was trying to recall how many sorties, and that number came off the top of my head, did he have 11,000 plus hours flying.  Somehow the number 11,000 got in my head, and I am sure it references to something that Hartmann did.

He did get 11 kills in one day though right, last couple months of the war?

I only have a worn out copy of "Horrido," "The Blonde Knight of Germany," and "The History of the Luftwaffe," but don't have them at work (where I was when I wrote the above.)  Had I had the reference handy to quote it I would have.

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"Looks Mean as Hell! Clare Lee Chenault.
 
When?
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.

[This message has been edited by Downtown (edited 09-15-2000).]

[Fishu]

   

Originally posted by Vermillion:
RAM, come on bud be realistic.

The .50's do not have anywhere close to the power of the MG151/20mm.  The tests you are refering too, is Fishu firing at drones, and taking down his impressions of what it takes to kill them. Not exactly what I would call scientific or conclusive. And even then his tests are of the Hispano 20mm versus the MG151/20, not the .50's, at least according to his posts I have read.

The only scientific tests (in a controlled environment firing at a hanger and counting rounds expended) I have seen of the guns showed that the MG151/20mm was 2 times more powerful than the .50 caliber, and the Hispano M2 was 2.5 times more powerful than the .50 caliber. Not exactly the results you keep stating as proof.

I fly German Iron myself (G10 with gondolas), and to me the Mausers only feel weak when compared to the Hispano MkII, and then not by much. I would say "weaker" not "weak", totally different thing.

The cold hard facts of the matter are this. The Hispano MkII is and should be more powerful than the Mauser MG151/20mm. The Browning .50 MG is and should be more powerful than the Mauser MG131/13mm.

But to start claiming that the Browning .50's are more powerful than the Mauser MG151/20mm is pure "Luftwaffe-babble".

If you have hard proof, from controlled tests, please share it with us, and lets see if the results show anything.

But to continuously keep claiming that the "Luftwaffe guns are PORKED, because the Americans are more powerful" without any proof or reasoning, just makes people disregard more and more of what you say, and take you less seriously overall.

And thats not an insult, its advice.      

Sorry, but my impressions is to be honest.
Of course.. Hispano is more powerful, but I hardly think it is this much more powerful.

In my testings, I really didn't try to compare any guns with others, I have shot drones with one shot, again one.. and then observed when I see some damage being done (mostly to critical damage)... there we have Hispano very lethal, being 1-2 shot killer (critical damage)

.50 caliber seemed to be fairly good also, chopped wings good and blew fuselages if fuselage hits only.
MG151/20 were quite lousy if you compare to Hispano which was twice much more powerful (1-3 hit killer compared to 2-6 hit killer.. concentrated fire)

Those hangar destroying results are not reliable - it does not model penetration which can cause more damages, where .50 calibers are on their best.

Let's also note that ShVAK was only a bit better than MG151/20 in testings, so it isn't just Luftwaffe whine.

I don't know what your "controlled" tests are.. I have done this few tens of times with each gun already.


Would you like that, Vermillion, if I would be telling that you are just on your own impressions because being allied defender that has no experience of other guns than his allied .50 and 20mm?
Gee.. go ahead and do your own tests with those drones for few tens of times.

Currently I think Hispano/20mm M2 and .50 caliber are too strong, while MG151/20, MG131, ShVAK and UBS are on their realistic levels about...
It is just too much that 1-2 Hispano rounds can rip your whole wing off or get stabs, but for that same with Mg151/20 / ShVAK you'll need twice more at least.

When you go figure this under combat, you'll find spread & spray kills much easier with Hispano than Mg151/20 / ShVAK, because you simply don't need more than 1 or 2 hits to that one place, while with those two others, you'll have to spray alot more. (dispersion)
5 spread & pray hits might well end the story with Hispano. (I say that is enough)


oh.. by the way, what right do you have to say that your hangar testings are any more comparable than mine?
We don't have a plane as target there. (so, it can't be reliable comparison)

[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 09-15-2000).]