Author Topic: breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....  (Read 2219 times)

Offline JB73

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2003, 12:37:25 PM »
Reading the end of your post i got to thinking about something i came up with a while back...

Why not make 1 extra LAGRE all purpose hangar at the medium and large airfields... maybe 2 at the lagre fields... that takes at least 10,000 lbs to destroy. make it's size about the area of 3 current bomber hangars in a row. that way the jabo-suicide typh tards couldn't close a field in 2 minutes.

another thing. fuel could be brought to the "front" quicker than alot of things... it was very important to have. why not make fuel bunkers stay down only 5 minutes or something. either that or multiply by 4 the number of fuel depots there are at a field.

oh well my 2¢
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Offline SunKing

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2003, 01:08:13 PM »
here's an idea I've adobted. Don't even bother with the land grabbing. Let the MAW squads play that game. There's plenty of Laz types that wanna furball and It's really easy to find those fights (even Trinty A30 was buzzing for 3 days straight). What I've been doing lately is taking the 190A5, get to 15k and try to pick off as many on the "congo line" as possible. It's a challege to lannd those kills in that plane when 50% of your targets are LA7's. I'm stll finding new ways to play in AH so I don't lose interest. Only time I log is when the pizza map is up.

Offline Furious

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2003, 02:04:23 PM »
My Opinion -

The level of A2A competency in the MA has dropped substantially.  

If you know you can't kill a guy in the air with BFM and ACM, but still want to play a role in the MA, you pork fuel, pork ordinance, pork hangars, etc.  Strat is your reason for playing.

Nothing in this game compares to the sweaty palm 1v1, 1v2, but alot of folks woud much rather completely avoid a fight.

No fights are boring.



F.

Offline Yeager

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2003, 02:35:44 PM »
Nothing in this game compares to the sweaty palm 1v1, 1v2, but alot of folks woud much rather completely avoid a fight.
====
Planes blow up so damned easily there is no fight once the advantage has been lost (which frequently means whoever has the alt at first contact) I remember in WBs going 1 vrs 1 numerous times gaining the advantage only to have the tide turn, then again and then often, again.  Fights lasting several minutes were the norm.  Here its, wham bam thank you mam.  Still fun in its own way but requires very very carefull (aka smart) playing if you really dont like letting some dorkchorkler take your virtual hide and blow you on the first damned pass.

Dont even get me going about blasting three B-17 FLYING FORTRESSES to SMITHEREENS in one spineless pass in a Spitfire.

Yeah...this game has never been too close to perfect to begin with.  Just throw in 300 tardinators and looky see.

Eat, me

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Offline Steve

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2003, 03:23:52 PM »
Hazed, sit in a flak, shoot ponies out of the sky that are  2.0K above you and read with glee the amazement in your victims text.




There are so many different things to do in this game,  I'm still having a blast.  Just for fun I furballed in an A20  yesterday.  There's lots of things to do.  :)
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Offline SlapShot

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2003, 03:49:57 PM »
1.) Get vulched because you didnt see the red bar in the sector.

DOH ... better SA from the tower will prevent this problem very easily.

2.) Fly 20 minutes to your desination at 15-20K feet, only to have 8-9 La7/Nik/Spit's drop down on you from 30K.

Just a tad overstated ... I NEVER see La-7s or N1Ks at 30,000 ft. La-7s won't go there because the SUCK above 15,000, so sighting 8-9 at that altitude is way over-exagerated.

3.) Fly 20 minutes to desination, find no one. Fly 20 minutes home.

Flying to a sector with no dar-bar will result in finding no one home to play with.

I really miss the small, 2v2, 4v4 engagements that were common only a year ago. Now it seems if you see one con, there are always at least 10 around him. The face shooting and ramming whines used to be great for a laugh... but does anyone use ACM anymore? It seems to me that 99% of the fights Im engaged in proceed as follows:

Visual sighting, 100% throttle, head to head merge, I drop underneath con's nose to avoid tracer fire, proceed to counter his first move... a flat turn... ok, simple right? Sure - high yo-yo... Nope... 5 more La7's coming... you need to break off cause you dont want to be caught on the upswing of the turn... but of course you cant disengage and break off because you cant outrun them. So you turn... nope... cant do that either, becuase there's an N1k back there too and he'll eat you. So what are you left with? No options. You franticly enter the world of dweebdom... "There is no way I can survive this engagement intact, so I will take as many of them with me as I can."


Here ... let me rephrase that for you from my standpoint ...

Visual sighting, 100% throttle, head to head merge, I drop underneath con's nose to avoid tracer fire, proceed to counter his first move... a flat turn... ok, simple right? Sure - high yo-yo... Nope... 5 more 109s/190s coming... you need to break off cause you dont want to be caught on the upswing of the turn... but of course you cant disengage and break off because you cant outrun them. So you turn... nope... cant do that either, becuase there's an P-51 back there too and he'll eat you. So what are you left with? No options. You franticly enter the world of dweebdom... "There is no way I can survive this engagement intact, so I will take as many of them with me as I can.

Most of these statements/observations are a thinly veiled whine about La-7s and N1ks and not the real problem at hand.

I have to agree that most don't want to really fight anymore, and just when I am starting to get the hang of AtoA combat.

Most of my merges are first trying to avoid the always expected HO at the merge. If HO, then you can expect 9 out of 10 times you will kill the bastage cause they have no AtoA skill. If no HO, then most of the time you can expect a pretty good fight.

Missions as of late (which I usally enjoy) have been boring to say the least. If the mission is huge, you are lucky if you get to fight one, maybe 2 guys, and to get in on the vulchfest is worse than a deli line when smoked-ham is selling for 50 cents a pound.

Laz still has the best idea going, and that is to place an early war Air-to-Air area inside the MA map. This would provide another level of choice that could only make things better.
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Offline RightF00T

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2003, 03:56:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I have come to the conclusion that for the past 5-6 months, there are FOUR  possibilites when you take off:

1.)  Get vulched because you didnt see the red bar in the sector.

2.)  Fly 20 minutes to your desination at 15-20K feet, only to have 8-9 La7/Nik/Spit's drop down on you from 30K.

3.)  Fly 20 minutes to desination, find no one.  Fly 20 minutes home.

.


4.)Take off, go AFK, come back 10 minutes later to see tracers flying by and the helpless feeling when your tail cracks off. :mad:

Offline mia389

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2003, 04:02:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Good post.  Im not much of a buffer, so I cant relate there... but as a pretty much dedicated fighter junky, I have come to the conclusion that for the past 5-6 months, there are three possibilites when you take off:

1.)  Get vulched because you didnt see the red bar in the sector.

2.)  Fly 20 minutes to your desination at 15-20K feet, only to have 8-9 La7/Nik/Spit's drop down on you from 30K.

3.)  Fly 20 minutes to desination, find no one.  Fly 20 minutes home.

I really miss the small, 2v2, 4v4 engagements that were common only a year ago.  Now it seems if you see one con, there are always at least 10 around him.  The face shooting and ramming whines used to be great for a laugh... but does anyone use ACM anymore?  It seems to me that 99% of the fights Im engaged in proceed as follows:  

Visual sighting, 100% throttle, head to head merge, I drop underneath con's nose to avoid tracer fire, proceed to counter his first move... a flat turn... ok, simple right?  Sure - high yo-yo... Nope... 5 more La7's coming... you need to break off cause you dont want to be caught on the upswing of the turn... but of course you cant disengage and break off because you cant outrun them.  So you turn... nope... cant do that either, becuase there's an N1k back there too and he'll eat you.  So what are you left with?  No options.  You franticly enter the world of dweebdom... "There is no way I can survive this engagement intact, so I will take as many of them with me as I can."  :(

 


Yep happens to me every night I log on.

Offline Trikky

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2003, 06:19:31 PM »
Lots of good points. Sums up how I see things at the moment. What freaks me out beyond all compare is when you finally find a 1 v 1 away from the furball only to have them run. Seems to me this is getting more common plus more pronounced - I frequently have planes turn around before icon range even if they're co-alt.

It's not the game at fault, it just seems the world and his dog has one eye on his airspeed and the other on the scoreboard. Would be interesting to see what would happen if scoring was disabled for a week.

Offline beet1e

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2003, 06:28:34 PM »
Hazed,

I’ve read your initial post a couple of times. It seems that the AH community is diversifying to some considerable extent. There are two broad groups. The furballers, and the strat players. And it seems that the two do not make good bedfellows. From your text I can tell that you fly strat missions, but not exclusively. And I can relate to all the difficulties you cited in your post. The problem is to garner any sort of support and/or understanding of the problems from the community. Half of them (the furball half – the exact proportion will be known when AH2 is released) have not the slightest interest in strat, except to say that they won’t like it if you were to bomb their fighter hangars because that “limits their choices” as to which airfields they can fly from... which is sort of the whole point of the exercise, but let’s move on...

It should be clear to anyone reading this BBS that many, many people are brassed off with AH gameplay as it stands today. In fact within the past two weeks, the quit posts have been pouring in, and that is not good news. People are sick to death of the line-‘em-up-knock-‘em-down-turkey-shoot-farce that MA gameplay has become. How did we get to where we are now?

I come from WB, developed originally by the same guys who developed AH – Hitech and Pyro. The subscription fees were high by today’s standards - $2/hour. And it really mounted up. I’ve had many 3-digit monthly bills, and some guys expenditure on WB equated to their monthly car payments!  The silver lining of this cloud was that we had mostly serious players – guys who really understood ACM, and taught me a lot, and guys with an extensive interest in WW2 aircraft and of course WW2 itself. The reasons were simple. Anyone prepared to make that sort of financial outlay was dedicated to flightsimdom. Sure, there were some suicide dweebs/HO wallies, but they didn’t stay long after they got their first bill, and there was usually a challenge to be found. We didn’t get The Kidz in there, as they simply would not countenance the $2 hourly fee. The numbers in WB were never as high as I have seen in AH this past 18 months. But it didn’t matter. The hourly fee took care of that.

Then came AH, which has always been flat rate. Suddenly the doors are opened to a whole new player base. $1 a day, now reduced to about 50¢ per day – big difference from $2 per hour – but that left a big problem. No more megabuck account holders. How to make up the shortfall? More accounts. The game had to be made attractive to a wider audience, and the flat rate went a long way towards achieving that. And along came The Kidz – in droves. Now the sad thing about The Kidz is that many of them have no interest in WW2, no interest in planes, no interest in ACM, and certainly no interest in strat. They just want the simple camera functions – point and shoot, and hopefully see something blow up. Many seem not to care if they get shot down. No interest in analysing what happened – and why should they care? A new plane is just a mouse click away. Aerial Quake, indeed. Of course, The Kidz have no skills, and therefore have special needs in the form of easy-to-fly wonderplanes. These needs are met by an inexhaustible fleet of N1Ks and LA7s. Ask yourself this: When was the last time you encountered a N1K when he did not turn towards you in an attempt to force the HO? When was the last time you saw one which made an effort at ACM?

So now the strat players/buff drivers are disgruntled – too many opportunist cherry pickers, especially on the children’s maps, with the 163 a real pain for buff drivers. A situation exacerbated by the bardar facility. That and the Mission Editor which, in the past, has been abused as a gangbang generator, combine to pork every honest attempt at a stealth capture mission. The enemy is simply lying in wait, every time. And the only way to get the job done is to use numerical strength. Skill goes out of the window, and the only strat – as Lazs has observed – becomes the numbers involved in the ensuing numerical supremacy smashdown.

What to do? Well I find Lazs’s 50,000’ mountain range idea interesting, but we have an anomaly here. Lazs does not believe in multiple arenas. But if that 50,000’ mountain range really is impermeable from both sides, then what’s the difference between that set up, and having two separate arenas? The only time I saw an arena divided in that way was a few years ago in WB – the Generations concept. Damn good idea, in which the map was divided into sections offering different types of plane – IJN, LW, RAF, USN etc. But no impermeable wall, so things were ruined by guys who would fly from the other side of the map in 109s and 190s to beat up zekes...

Hazed is right, and I believe the trend has been to cater increasingly to the guys who want an instant kill fix, and guys who want to see how many instant kill fixes they can get each hour. The more the game moves in that direction, the less appealing it will be to strat players. But it’s not just the strat players that have been affected by the rapid insurgence of the latest arena menace, the Newbie Steamroller - A particular problem on the smaller, children’s maps – and one of the reasons I prefer Pizza and Trinity, but not the only reason – there are others!

In recent discussions about the impact of the Trinity map on arena gameplay, I have come away convinced that the interests of the furballers and the interest of the strat players are mutually exclusive. My question is, why don’t the furballers move to the DA, or some other strat free arena? It makes no sense for the furballers (and the newbie steamrollers) to occupy a strat based arena when they have no interest in strat. It makes even less sense when, as a result of no arena separation, the furballers with no interest in strat make demands for changes – to strat!

The MA rather resembles the American Wild West of the 1800s – no rules, no structure, a free for all melee of which many, many people have grown tired, with the account cancellations rolling in.
Quote
Hazed said: ”This all for yourself attitude is NOTHINg like the way the war was fought. They emphasised TEAMPLAY and sound tactics not gunho ramming and suicide attacks 24/7. What i see of late is the people who are AVID aircraft and WW2 fans and are often well versed in ACM and well read on the history of the conflict being forced to fly in a way which CANNOT sustain adult interest for very long.AH seems to be changing into a fast paced checkers game where learning the intricasies of the world of wartime aviation is ignored in favour of becoming a fast shootem up player.I love it , furballing etc IS FUN. BUT it cannot sustain longterm interest.
Indeed, indeed. And the furballers (and maybe even the newbie steam rollers) will tell you that they “don’t care about YOUR war”. The arena has been designed with “freedom” and “more choices”. But more choice for Newbie Steamroller is going to mean less choice for anyone else. Hence the pissing and moaning about the impact of the suicide fuel porkers, amongst other furballer complaints.

When will people begin to realise that it’s because of the “freedom”, and  because of “unlimited choices” that MA gameplay has become the frustrating bore that many people find it to be today, with conga lines and aerial vulching/gangbangery, and Newbie Steamroller ripping us apart. Even guys like Apache now see the need for an RPS. “No! No! No!”, I hear you cry. “We want to fly what we want, when we want. We don’t want YOUR war.”  OK, it’s not just YOU who gets unlimited choices. Doofus-Dweebius gets the same choices, and spoils it for everyone. You want freedom, more choices? Fine, DD and NS get them too. You like conga lines, gangbangs, suicide TYPH missions against your bases, suicide LANC missions at 300’ to your CV? Good. Because that’s what you are going to get, until some semblance of order is created. Anyway, this whole debate will all be buggery-doo when AH2 appears. Any cosmetic quick-fixes are going to be tantamount to rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.  

Most of the guys I’ve asked are looking forward to the mission concept, with only a few dissenters. Could be that the mission arena gets a much better attendance, in which case the furballers will be disappointed. Next thing you know they’ll come cap in hand to the mission arena, but it won’t be long before these non-strat guys are asking for changes to the strat. Kind of like what we have right now – lol.
Quote
”Imagine a game where the developer provided the toys and all the kids in the sandbox were free to make their own choices about what constituted "fun". For some of us, that'd be heaven. For others, freedom of choice like that is scary or disappointing or "unfair" or something a nanny should do for them.”
Yeah, right. Look where that’s landed us.
:rolleyes:

Offline Toad

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2003, 08:01:41 PM »
LOL!

They just won't play your way, will they Generalissimo?

Tears fill my heart for your plight! :D

I'm thinking we're about to enter another "nirvana" era..... The Generalissimo's of "real war" will all be in the AH2 Mission Arena and the great unwashed "boys just wanna have fun" crowd will get to reclaim the MA; it may well be as it was in the glory days of beta. I can hope.

But I have the feeling the AH 2 Mission Arena will meet with the same underwhelming success that the CT did after a few got their way with that. It's running less than 10% of the average nightly MA attendance now, correct? Usually in the 5% range. (Don't get me wrong. I'm glad CT guys have their own little place. I think the "strat" guys deserve one too! Long live the AH 2 Mission Arena!)

If we can get HT to put the strat back to the early day levels, the MA could be great again.

Because rudimentary strat is all you need; IMO the beta and immediate post-beta era provided the most fun in the history of AH to date. (Maybe we could make everything uncapturable.. then all there'd be to do would be FIGHT!) When you think about it, it was when the "strat" got more and more complex is when the huge missions started and the small fights decreased. Not a coincidence, IMO.

And, after all, the uncounted thousands.. (or is it millions?) of "real war" players won't ever want to set foot in the unruly, strat-ignoring, MA again will they?

Cod bless yas! Enjoy yerselfs! If there's anything I can do to speed yas along, please don't hesitate to ask.

And now.. talks amongst yourselves. I'm leaving at 0dark30 to bring a newly rebuilt Fairchild PT-19 from Arizona to Nebraska. Open cockpit, low level, duckin' phone wires all the way. :D

You guys go ahead an argue some more 'bout strat. I'm going to go have so major fun!
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Offline Steve

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2003, 08:35:00 PM »
Toad you live in AZ?
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Offline bustr

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2003, 08:39:42 PM »
Toad has a point.

I flew AW from 1985 to 99. Strat was minimal so people improvised and had a load of fun. In the AW2 beta we were restricted to 1940 era fighters and bombers for 2 weeks. We had some nonstop giant furballs between Spit1's and Emil's while B25's and C47's worked their tails off to take fields. That was a fun 2 weeks. People whined for later war uber planes, but they kept coming back every day for more low tech mayhem.

AW3 started ruining it...lotsa uber planes, alt monkeys, picker-choosers and gang bang trains on fields. It got fun again for awhile when they brought back the original small Europe map. Distances were short and we got back to great low alt furballs between short distance fields. -anyone from AW remeber the Sha to Gra field wars?-

Buff pilots have always had it bad, newbees want shelter in numbers, and in a gunfight it's human nature to bring an MDuce instead of a flintlock.

I know I'm new to AH:) but remove all of the graphics and its not too different from AW. I noticed a bunch of AW old hands here.:D

I just joined so I'm getting my wings back into shape. I get my tail blown off alot:p  but so what, I'm using an LA7 to get oriented..dweeb newbiee syndrome. It flys like a little stang on steroids, saves whats left of my ancient dignity;) and gives me something to laugh about after I put a drill bit through my hand remodeling my kitchen this week.:eek:

And by the way I want to thank all of you for being a delightful community to fly with. I hope all of you get many oportunities to to blow my keister out of the the freindly sky's of AH. :D

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This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Pongo

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2003, 09:17:29 PM »
Good points in your intitial post Toad.
We got what we asked for but its hard in shuch a complex system to forsee all the consequences.
I dont think going back to what we had is the answer though. Pyro can keep watching what happens. Play the game so that he sees what we see. and tune things a little.
 still find some great one on ones. My squad can still take down a stirng of 6 fields if we get on a roll. But all too often someone will just summon a cloud of dweebs in typhoons and wreck what ever is going on...
Hard to think of an alternative. Maybe some kind of logistical limitation...but most of us would hate that..

Offline Hajo

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breif destription of AH gameplay of late.....
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2003, 11:11:27 PM »
I also get bored.  Sometimes I log on....sit in the tower.....surmise where I want to go in what......then say nawwwwwwww  and log.

I also miss the nice little fights 4 on 4 while intercepting a squad fighter sweep.........or being intercepted trying to with 4 or 5 squadies capture a base far from the maddening crowd.  One on ones, two on twos, etc are rare.  Everyone now looks for the so called front.....and doesn't want to create another front to fight in.
The huge red dar bar draws a crowd.  And when you get to the fight it looks like a bazillion flies hovering over a garbage dump.


Couple weeks ago Wilbuz, Apar and myself went to the DA not to duel and pound chests...but just to fly against one another.  It was fun.....and not one 20K (insert N1K, Spit, La7,or pony) dove in to break up the fun.  However one dweeb came in, saw where we were , got an ostwind and proceded to shoot us down when we took off.

Guess, just when you think it's safe to enter the water......there's another shark waiting for lunch.

Best thing I could think of to lessen the million man march to a base for capture is......
1)  Harden the hell out of the city.....add a couple more acks.
      Even make the city larger. Make the acks more lethal.
     Right now in two passes on the city all 3 ack can be taken
      down easily. One good 110 Pilot with Rkts and 2X500 lbs
     bombs can take out 80% of the city in short order and survive
      easily.  One can imagine what 20 typhoon pilots with
      suicidal tendancies can accomplish.  Suicide fuel porkers
      are another pain the the prettythang.



2.)  Spawn points.....for gvs. Eliminate them.  Yup I said eliminate
       them.  If ya want realism, make them travel the distance
       to their target, as the real ones did.  I see no spawn points
       for aircraft do you?  This also may stimulate getting large
       columns of gvs together for an attack. That's a mission.  
       Tank area in Trinity is good idea for those who like them.
       But if used against enemy bases then make them drive the
       distance needed to get to their objective.  Virtual reality...
       flight time.....and travel time should be accurate imho. I
       don't recall Patton spawning just outside Bastogne do you?
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