Double Attack/Loose Deuce - the BnZ 2v1

[Andy Bush]

Want to try a little cooperative A2A? See the latest BnZ article in the Air Combat Corner at SimHQ.

AH screenshots were used extensively in the article.

This article gives you academic background on mutual support offensive tactics as well as suggesting ways to fly these in your favorite sim.

Andy

[Extreme]

can you provide URL?...

tks..

Ex

[Duckwing6]

 http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/boomandzoom4/index.shtml

Awesome article Andy !

Just one thing could the pics be set to open in a seperate window please ? everytime you hit the back button from one of the pics you're on top of the document and have to scroll down to where you were... ahh i guess that only applies to the Netscape i use at work  

DW6

[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 08-02-2000).]

[Mitsu]

 http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/boomandzoom4/index.shtml

 

-Mitsu

[Mitsu]

Ouch! Mitsu has been shot down by Duckwing.  

 

-Mitsu

[Westy]

SimHQ is getting better and better. Great work guys!  Off to print to read later!

-Westy


(heee heee hee. I meant the above. But just a n elbow in your ribs kind of thing, just how is that AW(x) interview coming along. They promise it in "two (more) weeks"? You'd figure after making you wait three months they'd give you something with some meat and potatoes in it!)

[gatt]

Very good article. We use your writings to better train and fight.

GATT
4°Stormo Caccia
"F.Baracca"

 
(Courtesy of Lem)

[Spoons - SimHQ]

Duckwing, we tried doing the "shots open in a new window" thing once and got complaints about it.  The easiest way to do it is RIGHT CLICK on the image and then select Open in New Window.  I've gotten into the habit now, even with MSIE.

Westy, I don't know what the hold-up is, honestly.  I send them an email every once in a while to remind them, and they still say it is coming.    But thanks for your concern.  LOL  Someday we'll run it.  



------------------
John Sponauer
Senior Editor, SimHQ.com
jsponauer@simhq.com

[easymo]

 Does it really take lessons to learn how to gang bang. Does he have "bottom" printed on the soles of his shoes.

 Now an artical on how to win a 1v2 or 3 engagement would be interesting.

[Udie]

Originally posted by easymo:
Does it really take lessons to learn how to gang bang. Does he have "bottom" printed on the soles of his shoes.

  Yes,  I've been saved many times in 2v1 or 3v1 fights because they didn't use wing tactics. Many fights I should have died after the 1st turn, but manage to beat the odds because there was never an article like this  (Image removed from quote.)


 Now an artical on how to win a 1v2 or 3 engagement would be interesting.

 I too would love to see an article on this subject, heck I'd even go as far as to offer some tecniques that have saved my arse over the years...  (Image removed from quote.)

Udie
 

[Spoons - SimHQ]

 

Originally posted by easymo:
Does it really take lessons to learn how to gang bang. Does he have "bottom" printed on the soles of his shoes.

Well, I'm obviously biased about the article, but.....yeah, of course it takes lessons to learn this stuff, which is much more than a "gang bang."  As Udie said, I've seen many "pairs" really screw up their attacks.  Real-world combat crews spend hours upon hours upon hours working on pairs tactics....for good reason.  I just finished "Wings of Fury," about jet combat since Vietnam, and I'd guess 75% of the encounters described required coordinated actions of a pair of fighters.  Same was true in WWII.  That's just talking about getting a kill.....I'm not even referring to real-life where a pair not coordinating turn into a flaming wreck.

One of the things I wish were different in most online flight sims, AH included, is a real lack of emphasis on pairs.  I'm not the most experienced pilot, nor probably in the top 90% of the people who write here, but I can count the number of times I've been killed by an actively-coordinating pair on one hand.  Most of my encounters here, in Warbirds, etc. have been 1 on 1, or if there are nearby fighters, a gaggle on 1.  

For me, the real fun is with fighter pairs.....I wish there was some arena or some ladder or some system that could ensure you could log and on and consistently find pairs fights.  I guess you can if you join a squadron or something, but I don't see it enough.  2v2 is really a hoot for me to experience, and is the essense of what air combat is about, in my mind.  It's what raises games from the mentality of the loner-shooter-out-for-himself to a game where real-life coordination and practice pay off....that sounds wrong, but I can't think of a better way of saying it.  

Maybe it's just me.


------------------
John Sponauer
Senior Editor, SimHQ.com
jsponauer@simhq.com

[easymo]

 The artical was on 2v1. Why didnt you write one on 2v2? Not a flame. Just wondering.

 Udie. Ill take you up on that. Ill toss my 2cents worth in.

 As the bangee, you have to fight in a reactionary way. So I can only offer guidelines. First, never panic, and never, ever give up. This is what takes out most bangee,s. Second, attack them. They are going to come after you anyway. So you might as well start it.

 The best way I can think of to give some idea of what im getting at. Would be to describe my las 1v3 fight.

 They were more or less in a stright line. 2 close togeather. 3d a trailing dot. I had a lot of e. So i rolled between 1 and 2 As if to take out 1. I figured 2 would think he had an easy kill after I got 1. At the last second I rolled level uder 2 and pulled up hard/ I took off 2,s tail. This left me in a good positing for a nice gental loop. I saw out the top view that 1 had split S under me. tale view showed 3 (a P51) had closed to 9.o k. Plenty of time for an easy kill dropping down on 1. Unfortunatly 1 would not cooperate . He started making some very good evasives. And by the time I killed him, I was low on ammo and out of E. Mr. 3 was on me by then and I figured I had no other option than to take the bastard with me. I set him up for an HO and he took the bait. I got lucky and got the kill. But he took off my wing tip and I had to ditch. So I guess this is not a good one to brag about, since I didnt land it. But it does demonstrate some of the things I mentioned.

OK. udie. Your turn.

[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 08-02-2000).]

[Zigrat]

right, flying as a pair is fun, for sure. when fighting another pair. 2on1 is just not a challenge. I should add tho, that im not the best person to comment on these types of articles because *personally* flying air combat is more by feeling than thought, i dont really think of what move or whatever but rather its all like a big geometry puzzle. But anyways, i appreciate your hardwork for the community so <S>  

[This message has been edited by Zigrat (edited 08-02-2000).]

[Spoons - SimHQ]

 

Originally posted by easymo:
The artical was on 2v1. Why didnt you write one on 2v2? Not a flame. Just wondering.

The only article I could write on air to air combat as it relates to AH is "How to find a place to crash land" or "Skydiving:  HALO or taking a casual ride down."  Andy or one of our other writers are the guys to ask.      Besides, you wouldn't be able to cover 2v2 in an article...it would have to be a series.  Just too broad a topic, IMHO.

I understand the article was about 2v1, not 2v2.   The basics of pair combat is what excites me...that was my point.


------------------
John Sponauer
Senior Editor, SimHQ.com
jsponauer@simhq.com

[This message has been edited by Spoons - SimHQ (edited 08-02-2000).]

[Andy Bush]

easymo

Regards your question on a 2v2 article...

Spoons is correct. The addition of another bandit adds another dimension to the complexity of multi-plane combat. Our articles in the Air Combat Corner are intended to help folks fly their sims...they are not meant to replace other RL texts.

Putting aside all the factors that would drive how a 2v2 is flown, let me summarize it this way.

Most 2v2s result in one of two outcomes:

1.  One bandit is killed at the outset, and the subsequent maneuvering resembles a 2v1.

2.  Or, the bandits split resulting in an eventual pair of 1v1s as the SF is forced to break formation with the EF to honor the other bandit.

In RL, the 2v2, like the 2v1, is a scripted training mission. The mission objectives are effective comms and flight path coordination.

These missions teach EF/SF coordination skills that then are applied to a multi-bogey environment. In a RL furball, it becomes very hard to maintain the cohesion of the two ship. To do so usually requires 'hit and separate' tactics...also known as taking 'shots of opportunity'. We taught that turning more than 45-90 degrees to take a shot should be avoided at all costs...it ate energy, made the pair predictable, and decreased effective lookout.

What if the pair disregarded this in a M/B fight? They tended to end up as singles fighting separate 1v1s...and getting shot as a result.

All of this is pretty advanced for the typical simmer. View effectiveness and comm limitations combine to degrade sim mutual support for anything more than a 2v1.

Shaw has some good RL info on 2v2s. If someone just has to know, they need to head over there. He says it better than I ever could.

Andy