Author Topic: My 2 weeks is over...will I subscribe?...errm...no  (Read 2111 times)

Offline LePaul

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« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2001, 01:29:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Muck:

My advice to you, if you want it, is to hang in for a few months. When your on, look me up. I'll wing with you. Or check for Ripsnort's missions, or BD5's little jobs (that always seem to get me killed! <G> )
There's many others, but if you hang in, I promise you, you'll be hooked.

Good luck, and good hunting.

He he he....hey, desperate times call for desperate measures!  Seems whenever we up buffs en masse, the cons come out of the woodwork!

Hey, at least I'm not the one making these mass goon raids all the time.  Jacnife is addicted to them.  To me, it may work, but some lucky 109 has got to be drooling uncontrollably...perhaps the reason they auger themselves in, just an overdoes of glee?   :D

Cooperation is out there, just yell.  I love a team effort.  The lone fighter/buff thing is usually doomed to fail.

Offline Hajo

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« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2001, 02:08:00 PM »
Kieran

Thanks for link to the WWII OL BBS.  It's not like I'm Werner Von Braun......but methinks something amok at WWII OL.  No real explanations.....might mean no one in design at the Rat to give one.

Hajo
- The Flying Circus -

Offline K West

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« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2001, 02:19:00 PM »
The more I see Hatch write about how much depth there is to the physics in WWIIO and just how really wonderful it has become since June the more I feel as though I'm listening to Jack F. Lybynyte down at "Shiny Car Emporium" hocking a four wheeled bucket of guano.

 From AGW: "There are still small nagging problems here and there, but as you can see from that movie (ie. the one referenced in this topic), the worm has definitely turned and things are looking up! Hatch
 http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum3/HTML/024939-3.html

 I think the worm is not only turning, it's thriving in the bowels of the body Playnet.  ;)

 Westy

[ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]

Offline moose

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« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2001, 02:40:00 PM »
i needed the laugh.

hatch obviously thinks that warbirds and ah both have the flight models wrong and not to realistic specs.


riight.

i'd love to give WWIOL's incredible flight physics model a chance but unfortunately I don't have a gig of ram coupled with a geforce3 and an athlon 1800+
<----ASSASSINS---->

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2001, 03:51:00 PM »
What does "I'm not a newbie at flight sims" mean? I sincerely cannot understand, because, the most of the gripe-issues you have posted are actually the very "newbie" issues.     :confused:

 When I first came here I also thought very simular things. I used to fly at FA2, where the flight model is very 'forgiving'. I had exactly the same problems with barrel rolls, turns, split-s, loops .. every sort of ACM, you name it. And in those days, I actually thought myself as a 'good pilot'      ;). Not suggesting anything here, just commenting that you might be having same sort of confusions I went through.

 It took me a lot of time to learn from the beginning again, start researching, reading.. looking up sources and archives etc, etc.. before i understood that this AH stuff was reasonable, and made sense.

 Therefore , while  I see that some of your points are valid(especially with team play observations     :rolleyes: ), the gripes concerning flight issues, from my point of view, are pretty much typical misconceptions that the 'experienced' people get when they first enter AH.     :)

1. Barrel Roll

     
Quote
"I just think they bleed way too much E too fast. I couldn't do a proper barrel roll (not aileron roll!!) because I would be at stalling speed by the time I entered the 2nd"

 Though the concept of this maneuver is simple, it's actually not such an easy move to do for the beginner. Especially when it is done by planes that have bad rate of roll, or with planes that have bad handling at lower speeds. The radius of the BR is determined by the amount of rudder and stick you pull, and since this move wildly puts off the plane from level conditions, while simultaneously the plane has its rudders and elevators working, and the direction of is continuosly changing, loss of lots E is only natural.

 In short, when you have to enter into two consecutive BRs, then it means that your BR is a failed move... and only a handful of pilots can do a fast, fairly sized barrel roll and still keep their E as much as they need.

 And another factor is, BR is a moved designed to cause an overshoot. It is an effective defensive move against planes attempting high-speed passes from your behind. It is not a move designed to be used in a low speed turn fight - the sort of fight that is most frequent in AH. Nobody's gonna risk losing speed and control authority when they are defending themselves from a tight turnin Spitfire behind him.

2. Application of the Barrel Roll

     
Quote
"And...before you say...barrel roll, hah, easy...how come I never saw one person do it in combat? "

 People who fly n BnZ fashion planes use it frequently, I use it frequently also.. and nobody does ACMs just like the way that it is described in 'the book'. I may have to attempt a BR, then change my mind and pull off other direction.. someone may fake it as a BR and level his plane with just an aileron roll and etc etc.. Complaining you don't see a BR in play is like complaining that the circle of the loop for many pilots is not a perfect one.

3. Split-S

     
Quote
"Split-S...this was nearly impossible at low speeds because I would stall once in inverted dive and the plane would roll making it impossible to stay inverted and I would get into a vicious circle of stlling, trying to stay inverted and gain speed but cant due to rolling over...etc..."

 You enter a stall during Split-S when you pull the stick too much. Losing minimum altitude and maintaining a small, tight downward half-loop radius is not easy as it seems. Only skillful pilots can do that.

 Besides, it seems you cannot reverse yourself out of a stall triggered spin... it could be the plane you are flying. P-51s, F4Us and sort(usually American planes) have very nasty stall characteristics.

4. Engine Sound

     
Quote
The engine noise would stay the same no matter the AoA, speed etc...

 Engine sound is different when throttle setting is different, it does not differ by the altitude, or the speed. While the observer may seem to notice differences, this is due to the Doppler effect, and we DO have doppler effects here. Also, engine sound pitch is different with different throttle settings. (But you may not seem to notice a big difference, because the generic sounds HTC uses are admitabbly a bit "dull". try using custom sounds)

5. Landings

     
Quote
"the planes (fighters)were really hard to get under 100 mph..for example when landing, I like to flare at the bottom, like you normally would but I was always forced to land nose down because as soon as I flared the plane would start climbing instead of losing altitude and speed...it could never go below the critical speed to get it to stall ten feet above runway!!!"

 That's because you are not doing it right. It starts climbing because your pitch is too high considering your airspeed. Your trim settings or flap settings could be wrong, too. There indeed are ways to 'easy land', but I also do it the 'historical' way. No problem whatsoever in my case...

 Another reminder is, WWII planes weren't supposed to land with nose higher, at least not as much as modern planes. These types of landings were frequent when the triangular landing gears were in action. You are supposed to land a plane with two main gears and a tail wheel almost level, tail dropping a bit lower.. where the main gears would contact first, and after then the tail wheel would touch the ground.


 ...

 Hope to see you in the skies of AH MA soon.

 ps) three consecutive edits.. doncha just hate it when you remember you left something out when you are reading it over?   :D

[ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Kweassa ]

[ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Kweassa ]

[ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Kweassa ]

[ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Kweassa ]

Offline FlyingDuckSittingSwan

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« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2001, 05:23:00 PM »
Kweassa what I meant by not being a newbie is that I can do all those perfectly on all my other flight sims, except this one. And, as soon as I buy a game, I put settings to most realistic and "ace" level all the time...and usually can fly well in a few minutes.
I didn't have probs with any maneuvers in AH except for the split-s and barrel roll. I know the BR was a defensive move, that's what I was trying to do. But as for lead or lag turns, I could do them perfectly and yo-yo's, no prob. Also I have no probs with landing in other sims, except this one where I couldn't get the plane under the stall speed, so I would get to 10 feet above runway, flare (expect to bleed speed due to high AoA and so going below stall speed) instead it would just start gaining alt and not lose much speed...  :confused:
Other than that, I'm not a noob at flight sims cos I've been flying virtual planes for a long time..
  :p

p.s. If I'm a crap pilot, what do you call the vets I shot down...or even the 3 squad members when they got on my six and I shot down 2 of em, and got the 3rd, but he also got me in the end. I can't be that bad...  :D

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2001, 06:19:00 PM »
Not to pee in your Wheaties, but anyone can get shot down.  ;)

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2001, 07:19:00 PM »
Ah.. that's exactly the impression I hoped you didn't get from my post.

 I'm not mentioning you are a 'crap pilot', just that box sim or not, people(including many self described pilots) do tend to admit the quality of flight modelling in AH is the best of the breed.... and most of the WWII flight sims around, however realistic, falls somewhat short before AH.

 I also played a lot of flight sims with WWII material, and in my case I flew them with full real options after my experience with AH(it was only after AH I got interested in fully realistic environment). All seemed very much easy after my AH experience.

 As for shooting down experienced people.. I bet I've also shot down quite some numbers of pilots who are famous for their skills. It hardly means anything.

 What kind of planes you use under which situation is also a very important factor. A 109 would be easier to fall under stall with a hard pull of stick at low speeds than a plane like zero .. trying to barrel roll a Typhoon into a large Barrel Roll radius would be a suicidal move and etc..

 And as for the landings, the excessive speed just means you have miss judged your distance to the run way, the combat trim setting is probably on, and you are not using enough flaps.

 Overall, it is more of a pilot skill issue since there are people who do it, the barrel rolls, the landings, the split-S and etc.

 2 weeks, no matter how experienced, is not enough a time to find out how the planes in AH work. It's just enough time to let you taste what it might offer to you.

 It might be a bit hasty judgement(since, the flight modelling of WWIIOL, compared to AH, would probably give you not a single taste of challenge) on your part.

 .. but still, trying something else would not be so bad, and I respect your judgement. Not really anything much more to say about this matter.

Offline FlyingDuckSittingSwan

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« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2001, 07:41:00 PM »
Not to pee in anyones beer (or rootbeer would be morre realistic) but why is AH the most realistic flight sim?

a) According to who?
b) None of you have had experience flying WW2 planes so you're all talking out yer backsides when you say this.
c) I don't care if HiTech has flown a mustang for an hour, I doubt he tested it to the outer edge of it's flight envelope. Yeah right, with such a rare aircraft I doubt they let him take too many risks.
d) If everyones so good, why was I always asking people to turn back and fight instead of run.   :D   :D   :D
e) Why does AH have the monopoly on realism? Have they found the holy grail of FM data information in WW2? Have they attained/stolen information which was not viable to public viewing?
f) So you're actually saying that Microsoft, EA and all other such companies, with mega spending power, could not buy better resources/testers/data then a relatively tiny company?

Please, be realistic.  :rolleyes:

The thing that puts me off are arrogant people, and I see plenty on this message board. Try being more humble for everyones sake. Nobody made you "judge of flight model realism" last night, so get off your high horses, or I'll continue laughing in your direction.

Flame away...I'm laughing at you too hard to even care.   :D   :D   :D

Offline FlyingDuckSittingSwan

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« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2001, 07:49:00 PM »
and something else I would like to add...every landing I have witnessed was nose down at varying angles and if you don't believe me why don't you try spending a bit of time watching landings in an airfield? I never saw one person land as it's supposed to be...all 3 wheels touch at the same time with nose on high AoA. Talking about fighters...stuff the buffs.

p.s. How about renaming this game...

Aces On Their High Horses

or...more accurately

Wannabe Aces On Their High Horses

or...better still!!

Wannabe Aces On Their High Chairs

  :D   :D   :D   :D   :D   :D   :D   :D

[ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: FlyingDuckSittingSwan ]

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2001, 08:16:00 PM »
Tell you what, Duck, how 'bout you just do what you have to do. I thought you were rational. Sorry I was wrong. Should have read the header and realized it from the start...  :rolleyes:

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2001, 08:22:00 PM »
...that "arrogant" thing is going to be very interesting on the other board. You're gonna fit in juuuuuuust fiiiiiiine over there.

Just wait, just wait.... hehehehehehehehe   :D

Offline GunFighter

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« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2001, 08:56:00 PM »
Man, some of you guys sure are defensive, even to the point of blatantly lying to the guy.

I like both games. If I want a quick fix, or the urge to fly late war birds, this is the place. If I want to take part in something bigger, put some thought into where I go fight and why to help my ground pounder friends move the map, WWIIOL is the place to go.

Kieren, you are just plum full of it. I just went and tested every one of the AC over there. I dont know what game you been flying, but over there, a stuka will only loop for a long time if you do not apply a lot of G's and get plenty of E back on the downside. Trim it with more up elev and it falls out of the sky. Just like the rest of them after different levels of wing AOA and time. Also tested the endless 90 degree bank? couldnt find it. You bank at true 90 degrees and hold it, you will find yourself making a decending spiral into the ground. And a sustained knife edge always ends up in a wingtip hitting and cartwheeling the AC. hehe just like it happens with my RC models..      :) (yea, expensive habit)

All he has to do to hook up with good folks in WWIIOL is to go spend a little time at the command webpages: soe.wwiionline.com, and okw.wwiionline.com, to find out what radio channels they are using for any given area. Or he can just ask someone in game.

Geeeez! I can understand a fear of bleeding customers and/or mindless devotion to your favorite game developers, but at least have the nads to tell it like it is. To the guys that offered him help and reason... <S>

GunFighter

[ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: GunFighter ]

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2001, 10:26:00 PM »
Sorry Gunfighter, you are wrong. I haven't played 1.4, true; to that point I had, and the knife-edge climb was there, and verified by more people than myself. Sorry if you cannot reproduce the same results. Lay it on the port wing, watch the artificial horizon, maintain approximately 180-200kph. Adjust speed with rudder application. Use elevator to maintain direction.

FWIW, I WAS trying to be helpful. I tried to give a balanced account of what he has to expect- tell me where I didn't. Did I say Stukas could loop forever? No. I said I beat planes consistently I should not have and I lived in situations where I shouldn't. I said I have tested and found some results. Care to tell our friend about how you can flip tanks with the Stuka's landing gear, or are you going to deny that's possible (in the game), too?

The problem here is if people keep blowing smoke saying "the game is real cool and will work on low-end systems with great frame rates and is real stable and the flight model is the best in the business" people get shocked when they see things for themselves. It isn't stable for everyone. It doesn't run well on most low-end rigs. The frame rates are terrible compared to other MMOG's. I tried to lay it out balanced, and warned him not to spend a load of cash to get it to work. I stand on that advice to any newbie looking at the game.

Slavish devotion to developers? Hey, I paid my $40 to play. I gave it a chance. I also watched how the developers there handled the crowd and the problems associated with the code- Hatch's post with a link to an overclocker's page is a true gem. Sorry, I gave them my trust at first but they blew it. Now I only believe results, and they haven't produced anything tangible IMHO. Promises, nothing more. Trivia question: How many revisions have been preceded by the boast "We've found the CTD problem and it's been squashed!". Second question: how many times has this been true? Answers at the end of the post.

Anyone that talks about getting into that game should be warned they are entering a veritable hornet's nest of problems. Care to deny that, too? 30,000 sold first day, 10,000 subscribers now, what does that tell you?

Some guys play it and are having fun, and that's good. If enough like it and stay it may even make it. I DON'T think the way to get people in there and staying is to lie to them about "how great it is". The only thing that game has going for it is potential, and that isn't at this point being realized.

Yes, approximately 200 Allieds shot down by my Stuka vs. one air-to-air death.

#1 Every Patch  #2 Never   :)

[ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2001, 10:32:00 PM »
BTW, thanks for the concern for my 'nads.  :p