Author Topic: Roll rates  (Read 2695 times)

Offline Pyro

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Roll rates
« on: May 20, 2003, 02:00:09 PM »
We're doing some revision regarding roll rate mechanics and the actual roll rates of planes.  Basically, we're changing some things to make the effects of aileron input in stalls more accurate on a plane by plane basis.  We're also changing the structure of the system to make it a lot easier to precisely hit the numbers we're trying to model.  With these changes, I'll be going over every plane and fixing any irregularities that I find.  If you feel there is a specific inaccuracy in the roll characteristics of a specific plane, please let me know here with what's and why's.  If you have some specific data to present or reference, that would be the most helpful.

Offline 2Hawks

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« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2003, 04:27:46 PM »
Thanks for the Info Pyro. It's great to have some input.

Will you be modeling Adverse Yaw in normal and situations with missing ailerons?

What about the airflow moving infront of the aileron control surface negating performance? This was something that was designed for in the P-51 with an internal flap that was supposed to keep the airflow over the control surface instead of going between the space between the wing and the Aileron.  -- Had a tremendous effect on perfomance and speed.

Right now in most planes I can lose a piece of wing and still make it home with lots of rudder, With Adverse Yaw I would have to be doubly carefull with the rudder and my power management lest the yaw pull the plane into a flat spin.

Good to know your going plane by plane tho. Good Q.A. :)

2Hawks

Offline Kweassa

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Roll rates
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2003, 04:49:53 PM »
It is always terrific to hear news from the developers!!! :)

 ...

ps) I believe there were some discussions on how the Spitfires roll a little too fast. Can anybody elaborate on that?

Offline ramzey

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Roll rates
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2003, 05:47:24 PM »
Pyro,  this is an official demand to start whining? ;)

ramzey

ps. hands off from spit!!!!

Offline Kweassa

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Roll rates
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2003, 07:02:38 PM »
*pokes Spitfire wings*

 :D

Offline thrila

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Roll rates
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2003, 07:10:52 PM »
*saws spitfire wingtips off* Yay! now it has an uber roll rate:D
"Willy's gone and made another,
Something like it's elder brother-
Wing tips rounded, spinner's bigger.
Unbraced tailplane ends it's figure.
One-O-nine F is it's name-
F is for futile, not for fame."

Offline Fariz

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Roll rates
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2003, 02:57:25 AM »
I always used to think rollrates of AH planes modeled quite correctly (at least to my limitted knowledge).

Still have one comment to make, about p38. Hope, it will be useful.

From "America's 100 thousands", by Francis H. Dean, page 160

"The p38 was a large heavy fighter not suited  for quick snap or slam-bang maneuvers, and had a particularly slow initila responce  in roll due to a high laterl inertial characteristic. The problem was a slow start into a rolland thus an inability to switch quickly form one attitude to another, as in reversino from a turn in one direction to one in the other. As one pilot said "It was disconcerting to havve a fighter barreling  in on you, crank the wheel over hard, and just have p-38 sit there. Then, after it slowly rolled the first five or ten degrees of bank it would turn quickly, but the hesitation was sweat-producing. Many combat losses, particularly in North Africa, were attributed to this creaky initial rate of roll. Another pilot noted "The first ten degrees of bank came very slow". Power boosted ailerons, introduced the same time as dive recover flaps, gave the p-38 pilot a lot more "muscle" to improve roll characteristics at high speeds, but did nothing to improve them at low or moderate speeds where maximum roll performance was dependent only on full aileron deflection instead of pilot effort."

I noticed a small inertial in p-38 roll in AH, but it is not large enough to make much difference in fight. What described here shall be more noticable.

Offline blackwitch

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Roll rates
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2003, 11:00:12 AM »
I've read in several historical accounts that the 190D9 had a slower roll rate than the FWA's.

Offline ramzey

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Roll rates
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2003, 11:43:25 AM »
guys, charts, documents, proofs
it work like that, not "by the feelings"


ramzey

Offline Stang

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Roll rates
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2003, 11:45:35 AM »
And it does roll slower than the A's in AH.

Offline Pyro

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Roll rates
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2003, 11:45:50 AM »
Adverse yaw is present in the current model.  The magnitude of it may very well differ with the changes we're making, but HT is also unhappy with the way the slip indicator currently functions and wants to change that.

Offline Fariz

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Roll rates
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2003, 11:47:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey
guys, charts, documents, proofs
it work like that, not "by the feelings"

ramzey


Charts of rollrate?

Offline ramzey

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Roll rates
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2003, 11:54:21 AM »
data is better word?

Offline Pyro

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Roll rates
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2003, 12:03:43 PM »
You don't necessarily need documented data for what I'm asking, although that is certainly preferable, but you should be able to state a reasoned hypothesis with some supporting evidence.  What Fariz posted is a good example.  I'm not saying that whatever is posted will result in a change that way, but it is your opportunity make sure that I'm not overlooking any pertinent information.

Offline Batz

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Roll rates
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2003, 06:17:16 PM »