Author Topic: Roll rates  (Read 2762 times)

Offline Zigrat

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Roll rates
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2003, 10:22:25 AM »
oh and if you need anything from NASA Langley I'll be there 2 weeks in June  and all of July with full access to the library so if theres any old reports you need let me know. they have the most complete Aerospace library in America.

Offline Pyro

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Roll rates
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2003, 04:51:27 PM »
Thanks for the input.  Please be sure to reference any data that you post so that it remains in context.

Zig, the moments of inertia are problematic since we only have this data on a few planes and had to use that to make estimates on all the others.  I don't follow your reasoning on why roll rate information is not helpful.  I can assure you that it is.  If you are trying to recreate an equation and accurately fill in all the variables, why would you only concern yourself with one side of the equation?  It sounds like you subscribe to a school of thought in this genre that believes these planes should be modeled on inputs alone and the output will naturally fall out accurately.  I can tell you that such an approach is naive and any real accuracy derived from that method is more or less coincidental because you either don't know all the variables or don't know all the variables precisely.  Even if your engine was so advanced that it considered the effect of the fit and finish of every single rivet on the plane - you would not have the necessary input data to insure an accurate output.  See chaos theory and butterfly effect.

You can look at the equation a * b * c = d and say that it's not necessary to know the value of d when you know the values of a, b, and c.  That is correct, but it is not correct when there is a margin of error in any of those values.  And if a, b, or c, are derived values, a small difference early on can cascade into a much larger one.

Offline gripen

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Roll rates
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2003, 06:02:07 PM »
Zigrat,
Among NACA papers look for the Confidental Bulletins of the Aeronautical Research Committee (Stability and Control Sub-Committee handled aileron stuff), Memorandum Reports for the AAF (MR and CMR, NACA tested practically all fighters used by AF) and Advance Confidential Reports (ACR). Seems that confidential bulletins are not listed in their database but I believe they have those in their archives (I've seen quite lot of that stuff in PRO). Generally you must go through truck load of papers to find something interesting.

gripen

Offline MANDOBLE

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Roll rates
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2003, 06:36:09 PM »
IMO, roll rate is secondary compared to roll inertia/acceleration.

As an exageration, imagine what good at scissors would be a plane with a roll rate of 360d/s but spending 1 minute untill that rate is achieved and that needs another two minutes to get that rate in the opposite way.

It is the same that level top speed vs level acceleration. Just imagine two sims modeling the P51B, both with same top speeds at sea level, the first achieving it in 5 minutes and the second in 10 minutes.

Offline brendo

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Roll rates
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2003, 07:02:23 PM »
Pyro,

Can you please help me out with something I've been trying to figure out for a long time.

Why do some people think that if you center a stick while a plane is rolling, that a WWII aircraft will take up to 45-90 degrees of continued roll to stop rolling.

I know that when I roll my little aeroplane in real life and I center the stick, that the plane stops rolling VERY quickly.

What gave people the idea that a plane continues to roll so far after centering the stick?

I have seen gun camera footage of a combat P51 being shot at, initiating an imediate aileron reversal of roll.... ie the roll response was immediate and crisp.

It seems like on the internet, people think either a plane responds to stick imput immediatly or that it takes a lag period before ailerons actually work once already in a roll.

Why is this?

Offline Zigrat

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Roll rates
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2003, 09:26:07 PM »
hey pyro,
no i definitely think that knowing the answer helps to get the equation.. i know it definitely made my homework problems a lot easier when i could back solve since the final result was in the back of the book! so i dont disagree with anything you wrote :)

My point was more along the lines of the p-38 roll issue that was previously mentioned. Roll data such as in the chart posted by f4udoa has little relevence with regard to dp/dt (time range of change of angular velocity along the body x axis) since it really only gives the maximum roll rate and this has nothing to do with roll inertia, only with aileron effectiveness( mostly dealing with aileron size, hinge moment, wing torsional stiffness (ie when does reversal occur) and available control power (cockpit considerations) and the roll damping term Clp (mostly dependent on planform shape). Its similar to the concept that just because a plane is fast doesnt mean it climbs well. There is no real way to back out moments of inertia from maximum roll rate data alone. You could however use that data to estimate aileron power information since that DATCOM and the paper referenced below give methods for calculating Clp. (page 20)


For explanation of the different stability derivates and explanations on how to estimate them see http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1952/naca-report-1098/naca-report-1098.pdf . I think the methods in the DATCOM are the ones currently accepted by industry and used in aircraft conceptual design.

I apologize if you took me the wrong way but I guess i probably do have a bias since I work in aircraft conceptual and preliminary design where you draw an airplane and have to figure out "how will this thing fly" .. Actually many airplanes since we need to evaluate thousands of designs using automated tools for optimization purposes.  We are happy if we get close in the early stages of the design process, where you are modeling planes that actually flew and will have many many complaints if someone finds your model differs from such and such chart by 2%. I think your job is harder in many ways.

Offline hitech

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« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2003, 09:08:20 AM »
Zig, p38 happens to be one plane we do have moments on.

But you are correct about no simple way to estimate moments from flight data, unless you have a time to max roll rate chart, don't belive i've ever seen one.

But we do have the moments on a number of planes. And with enof samples of different planes ,others can be estimated fairly accuratly. Now if you also look at the effect of moments being off 10% by estimating them, you will see that the net effect is almost none existant.


HiTech

Offline muckmaw

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« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2003, 09:26:56 AM »
HT, Pyro-

I have full access to the Grumman Library, which would include all the original specs on the F-6F, F-4F, and TBF.

We also have a large amount of the original work on the Republic P-47.

If you need me to look something up on these aircraft, and can give me an idea as to what values you need, I'll be happy to do so.

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2003, 09:33:23 AM »
Hitech,

You have flown or flown in a P-51D (You bastard;) ) what was the feel of it?

I have flown at Air Combat USA. My experiance was that if you had your hand on the Yoke and even thought about a roll you were going to do one. I don't think those A/C were any less unstable in the rolling plane than the P-51. In fact the only perceived hesitation in the controls would probably be the distance neccesary to move the controls before you get  response. And that is negated by joystick calibration in the virtual world.

Do you plan on building a deley in the roll of all of the fighters on AcesHigh?

Please do not make this feel like MushBirds 3.

Offline Batz

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« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2003, 10:02:14 AM »
as it is in ah currently.

Unlike wbs.

Offline Pyro

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« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2003, 12:18:44 PM »
I follow you Zig.  There's nothing tricky about the way the model works.  It works as you would expect it to.  The ailerons change the effective AoA of that portion of the wing and the resultant forces generate the effect.  Looking at a typical roll rate chart for these planes, roll rate will increase with speed up to an apex and then fall off as stick force becomes a limiting factor.  Once the data is plugged into the model, the plane should be closely match the part of the chart to the apex.  If it doesn't then that tells me that something is off and I have to massage the variables to produce the desired output.  Once you get past the optimal speed, roll rate is decreasing because maximum stick deflection can no longer be achieved.  At that point, I'm looking at the backside of the roll rate curve and using that to input to the model that maximum lateral stick movement for that speed.  In this case, the inputs for limiting stick deflection are solely based on the desired output.  It is a lot of inputs to make and any mistakes made there are not readily apparent.  It also means that if I later find something amiss on the front side of the curve and correct it, it throws everything off on the back side.  One of the changes that I alluded to is that we're changing the input to the other side of the equation.  Instead of stating what the maximum stick input is at a particular speed, the maximum roll rate will be used instead and the model will fill in the necessary stick input.  That will give us a higher degree of accuracy and make errors less likely.  We're also making changes to get rid of some limitations that introduce small errors that have to be overcome elsewhere.  An example of this is that the current model assumes aileron travel is equal in both directions.  That's not the case on many planes and modeling it that way could lead to some minor undesired characteristics.  

As HT said, moments of inertia are nice to have but not something we really sweat.  We had a good starting point and having an exact number is not needed because even a huge change can be barely perceptible.  You really just need to get in the ballpark with it.

I don't know why some people feel there should be a tremendous amount of roll inertia in these planes.  For me to impart a large amount on a typical single engine fighter, I would have to increase the MoI's an order or more of magnitude.  It was something that we talked about prior to HT taking his P-51 flight because I thought that it should be present to a noticeable degree(I'm not talking about a big bellybutton lag, but rather the absense of crispness).  Anyway, his flight laid those doubts about the model to rest.  I guess the reason some people subscribe to that idea is because it seems to make sense intuitively.  It's much easier to visualize mass than force.

Offline hazed-

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Roll rates
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2003, 12:52:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blackwitch
I've read in several historical accounts that the 190D9 had a slower roll rate than the FWA's.


and...you think its wrong in AH?

The roll rate on the 190A's was far suoerior to any other aircraft and the 190d9 was a little slower than the A's I believe .This still however was far better than most aircraft at least up to 400 mph +.Are you saying you think the roll rate of the 190d9 is too fast in AH or too slow? Have you tested it to see if it is?
From tests ive done i would say the 190's are all slightly slower than the charts.Also they perhaps dont match up to several 'historical accounts' ive read as in:

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm 15. staffel JG3
'As an air superiority and interceptor fighter the fw190d-9 handled better than the Fw190A; it was faster and had a superior rate of climb.During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000 ft, usual when engaging Russians, I found I could pull the fw190D into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage.In the descent the 'Dora-9' picked up speed much more rapidly that the A type; in the dive it could leave the russian yak-3 and yak-9 fighter standing.'

However, as is often pointed out accounts from pilots dont count ;)
anyhow im just jumping in to defend the 190D just in case you are out to get it :D
« Last Edit: May 23, 2003, 01:00:52 PM by hazed- »

Offline blackwitch

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Roll rates
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2003, 01:28:24 PM »
No... I like the D9 see mine here...

http://www.whitewitchweb.clara.co.uk/all_images/fw190d9/index.htm

I was just answering pyro's thread starting comment with..

I've read in several historical accounts that the 190D9 had a slower roll rate than the FWA's.

That's all      :)

p.s. "If" I had one criticism on the AH D9 it would be that the colour on the wings is "mostly" wrong
« Last Edit: May 23, 2003, 01:30:26 PM by blackwitch »

Offline Zigrat

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Roll rates
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2003, 01:57:11 PM »
Hey pyro,
yeah I totally understand. Do you model aileron reversal? I have never experienced it in aces high but IIRC many of the early planes of WW2 experienced it (I think the spit Mk I especially) where right aileron gives left roll above a certain airspeed

I also agree that exact figures for roll inertia are probably not necessary. If you know it for a P-51 that number will probably be reasonably accurate for a Me-109 with a little massaging.  If your 10% off like you said it may mean that it takes 2.2 seconds to reach maximum roll rate rather than 2 seconds but IMO that type of difference is rather trivial.

Finally i agree about crisp response. If you look at the magnitude of the roll damping term you will see its pretty darn big, and for most airplanes unless they have big wing tip tanks or something else out there when aileron input is removed they should go to zero roll rate rather quickly.

Offline gripen

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Roll rates
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2003, 04:19:26 PM »
I quess you have allready got RAE TN 1231? (available from the PRO as AVIA 6/10353 and DSIR 23/12865) It's contains a simple method to calculate real times to bank plane but all planes in the comparison were single engined. It also contain time/roll velocity charts for the Fw 190.

gripen