in the new "missun arena"...

[Toad]

Well, obviously, rank means nothing to me. And I do find it somewhat amusing that some folks take it seriously, like the guys that tack a rank on to their signature, like "Major Domo" or the like.

But again, that's just my personal view on it.

As a motivator for gameplay it will obviously work for some folks and may be a key ingredient in achieving the type of gameplay they want/need in the new arena.

I doubt it would have any effect on my usage of the arena. I'll be there if the fights are good and the boredom quotient is low. I have flown a few of the various scenarios and TOD type stuff. Some of them were good, some of them bored me to tears.

Anytime I feel myself going for the alt/tab to web surf while flying AH, I get a baaad feeling. Like "why bother playing then?"

I'll just have to see how the new arena works for me. The "rank" may be a big factor if it allows 10 cent generals to order me to do this or that with the ability to deny my capability to launch.

[Batz]

From my POV, the fun in AH has slowly eroded as all this extraneous garbage has been added to the original, fun Fighter Combat MAIN ARENA.

I could quote moree just from that Trinity thread but the above covers it.

This arguement was made well over a year ago. For some it wasnt "slowly eroded". The influx from aw and the more difficult bomb site changed the Nature of the main. In a matter of a few months we saw the rise of pork auger and a shift that took base capture from a means to encourage a2a (something to fight over) to a means to trigger a reset. The reset meant all.

I dont fly in ct anymore and havent in months. Its has changed as much as the main. At one time the ct had no base capture and was a totally different arena. In order to get more folks in the setting and concept was changed. Instead of bringing in more folks in brought in just enough to replace those who left.

The ct was never about better people but  fights. Some tried the "come fly with the cool kids" in the ct but it never was that. The CT has shifted away from the fight to something else that those who fly there now seem to enjoy.

The MT wont be the promised land but atleast to me it has more potential then the field capture, reset driven main. The whole idea of strat in any of these arenas is funny to me because its just so fake.

I used to like to big furballs and I used to enjoy intercepting those old hq raids. I would have np with the field capture crew if there was an area where one could just fight. But unfortunately to capture the bases they need to kill the fuel and hangers and all the things that impact my ability to have fun. I dont care about resets or the capturing of fields or even what map is up. I would like pop in for an hour or so have a few fights and log. Before you could this every night. Then it got to a few times a week and now a few times a tour.

I dont know that the MT will be "better"  but if it stays focused on the fight then I can deal with longer flight times, death penalties and the wait between missions.

[Toad]

Yeah, I think the old pure ACM gameplay was more fun. So? I'm not quitting AH or the MA over it. I've had a lot of fun the last two weeks.

I don't have a problem with the "strat" per se unless it absolutely compels players to play that game. There's room in my church for all types of players.

And the present strat does not compel. Despite the horde aspect of strat as it is currently practiced, just about every map still allows the "fun fighters" to do their thing. Oh, there's irritants, like the disproportionate kill fuel/replenish fuel aspect, but even on the small maps there's good fights. You just have to move away from the horde attacks and start up a little row in a quiet area.

We TAS always seem to be able to get the BK's to party in a formerly quiet area with just a quick private message exchange. And that's ALWAYS a good time.

So, maybe I've presented my views incorrectly. The present "strat" doesn't bother me much. But yes, there are a few minor irritants but no "show stoppers". If guys like to do that stuff, let them. It really has no effect on my play because I can always find a good CV battle going or a fur in a quiet corner with like-minded individuals.

Similar to my take on the CT or the new arena. It's all good and I have no serious problem with it as long as the Genralissimo's grant me the favor of allowing me to do my thing too.

[Wlfgng]

the ol WB ACA arena was a blast IMO...

Milenko and I would fly all night there, drinking and flying and having fun

[lazs2]

batz.. what is "training"  and why would you bother?   A for instance might be... guarding bombers... I would obviously go after the fighters and not care how many ai bombers got shot down... i woul get say 5 kills that sortie.  the guy who clung to the bombers going slow would probly die...

Who would get the rank?

I would get rank in that arena because.... well... I am at least mediocre... I will allways outperform those who go to that arena and have no real skills (worse than mediocre)... I will do as I please and they will stick to the rules being further penalized..

Can you not see the potential for conflict?   The CT is a dream compared to that.   They feel a comraderie that is born of being so few.... when things get lopsided tho... even their tempers flair... the longer they, or any of us go without action the more intense is the letdown when something percieved as not fair kills them.   That is what is happening in the MA with the fields being farther apart... try to imagine if you will, ol lazs going in the missun arena and simply klling the attackers or defenders, depending, without any thought to the ultimate success of the missun.  

just seems like a lot of potential for discord... who will decide what is appropriate action/behavior in a "missun" and who will judge/enforce?  

the MA is full of gamey suicide dweebs and timid sky accountants... why would they change their stripes in another arena?
azs

[muckmaw]

I don't understand why you're concerned about the Mission arena, Lazs.

It's obviously not your cup of tea.

You're not going to fly it, are you?

You're getting a graphics upgrade in the MA, and closer fields/More CVs on Trinity. Sounds like the MA will be Utopia for you once AHII comes along.

Why do you care what happens in ToD?

[lazs2]

Oh... I never say never... I don't like the CT but... lesser of two evils kinda thing...  I have flown the CT when it is 3 sector flights in infinity or pizza or nite in them so....

say it's night time in pizza land and say it's dee 9's and 109 f's and 205's against p40b's in the ct and say.... the "missun arena" has a missun coming up that is a fighter sweep at 5K between two close fields with 40 guys on in 2 minutes...  

I'm gonna try the missun... I'm gonna kill anything I can too.   I will probly do ok... in fact... they may make me a colonel or general and I can order you to be my wingman.
lazs

[muckmaw]

Originally posted by lazs2
Oh... I never say never... I don't like the CT but... lesser of two evils kinda thing...  I have flown the CT when it is 3 sector flights in infinity or pizza or nite in them so....

say it's night time in pizza land and say it's dee 9's and 109 f's and 205's against p40b's in the ct and say.... the "missun arena" has a missun coming up that is a fighter sweep at 5K between two close fields with 40 guys on in 2 minutes...  

I'm gonna try the missun... I'm gonna kill anything I can too.   I will probly do ok... in fact... they may make me a colonel or general and I can order you to be my wingman.
lazs

I was the impression you had no intentions of trying it.

You seem to think I would have some problem flying as your wingman. We've flown in some battles together, and I've given you the same courtesy as any other Knight pilot. I'll continue to do so, giving 6 calls, and clearing you when needed.

Just because we have differing views on this game does not mean we're not on the same team when we go into the arena.

I look forward to flying with you and your squad in the ToD.

[Batz]

Training is the "death penalty" for those ranked at the bottom.

If there was nothing else you would get perpetual bottom feeders who may just act as spoilers for the rest of the folks.

Q: Briefly describe the rank progression as you envision it. Will this be simply a ‘perk point’ based rank increase or will certain people be chosen to run certain aspects of the arena, akin to the CM setup that we have for the TOD and Snapshot events?

Rank progession will be similar a typical RPG with experience points and levels except that we will have ranks and career points or whatever we decide to call them. It’s totally different from our perk point system in that it is mainly achieved through mission success rather than just how many kills you get.

ToD runs as an automated process so there’s nothing like a CM required. We’re considering allowing players to design campaigns and missions. The big drawback to that is that they wouldn’t be able to participate in them.

Q: How are mission orders generated? At what level, or rank, will gamers be able to create missions or will this be limited to a few selected individuals? How will the staff be used to control the numbers of missions and who makes them?

Players don’t create missions. The missions come down from HQ a.k.a. the host. In planning an attack, the best mission plan would be one with no enemy contact. However, that would make for a pretty dull mission and we don’t want that. So the missions are orchestrated to give an almost certain probability of enemy contact while preserving the ability to be surprised and have to react.

Q: How do you see squad or unit structure shaping out in AHII? For example, currently there is a 32 person limit for squad members in one arena. Is there a plan on changing that?

There will be a lot of things that are either different or won’t carry over from Classic to ToD. For example, killshooter (reflective damage for friendly fire) will remain in Classic but won’t be in ToD. Instead, there will be a court martial system.

Q:Part of the artificial feel of the furball-type of games now is that death essentially means nothing. What happens in AHII when an avatar dies? Do you go back to square one or is there a ‘penalty’ for dying? At the same time, what will you do to prevent ‘point hogging’ by some folks that will not accept risks if it involves the potential loss of their avatar?

There is a penalty for death, but it won’t take you all the way back to square one and it will be variable according to the situation and your rank. How much we penalize death vs. how much we penalize not accomplishing the mission is the delicate balance we need to strike. The benchmark we use to find that balance is by looking at mission results and loss rates. We want to keep the loss rates reasonably realistic. It won’t work if everybody is afraid to fight just as it won’t work if everybody is suicidal. The game needs to promote a balance of aggressiveness and self-preservation.

From HTs original thread about AH2

As we started working on the mission theater, we realized we were making a completely new game from that which is Aces High today.

This lead us to starting work on AcesHigh II. Which will be 2 games in one.

1st.
AcesHigh Classic, which will be the Main areana as we know today, only with updated Graphic Eng,and other sim items, but the game play will be similar to what it is today.

2nd. The Mission theater. We need a better name for this. AcesHigh "Fill In the blank"

This game will will be primarly geared toward role playing.
The outline of the game play items are as follows.
1. You will enter the game as a cadet and have to pass some training sorties to get your wings.
2. Once you get your wings you will be a 2nd LT with 500 carer points.
3. If you die you will loose aprox 100 career points.
4. If one your mission is a success you will recieve 10 carreer points.
5. If your points go to 0 you are demoted back to a cadet and have to go back threw training.
6. If you get 1000 Points you will be promoted to 1st LT.

Once your a 1st you will the loose 150 for a death and recieve 10 carreer points for mission successes. If you reach 0 your back to 2nd or 1000 your promoted. Along with a promtion comes better ground crews. So your guns might jam less,eng run better, but your expected perform a lot better. There's also medals and other stuff.

The point values in the example above are just for demonstration purposes just to give you an idea of how it will work.

Battles will last for a given period of time before moving onto the next phase of the war.

Missions with be automaticly generated by the host, and have a substantial AI componet of either bombers or ground vehicles.
Offensive missions will be primarly to protect bombers or vehicels, defensive to kill bombers, or vehicles.

You will have 2 avatars, one for axis one for allied. You will only be able to play 1 avatar per battle. There ranks will be independent.

So we would like some suggestions on the name. This is just a short outline of the the things we have in mind for the mission based play.

So does anyone have a cool name for it? We view this as a combination of flight/combat sim and military role playing. We'll be putting out some news about all this shortly, but we're stuck on a name.

HiTech

The numbers used in HTs announcement were just examples.

You can read the thread here

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76387

You can read this thread entitled "what happens when you die".

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77962

It is a longer discussion about training


From the FAQ (sticky at top of Forum)

What is Tour of Duty?

Tour of Duty is a cross between a historical WWII simulation and military RPG. What is so different about it is that it’s not simply an Axis vs Allies free-for-all using WWII equipment in a geographic WWII setting. ToD puts you in the role of a WWII combat pilot (of course the emphasis is on air-combat, but ground combat will also be included at times) with all the responsibilities and restrictions that comes with it. You are not just an operator of military equipment, you are a soldier or airman in the military. That means that everything you do is part of a unit and part of a mission. There is no free-lancing, you can’t just select a plane and head off to exchange lead with the closest enemy.

Everything in ToD is based on missions. It’s not necessarily about how many kills you get. It’s about the successful completion of the mission. Success will come to those who use teamwork. With success will come promotion and the additional privileges and responsibilities that that entails.

Think of the classic movie 12 O’Clock High and what it would be like to be in that setting. That’s what we want to capture with ToD. It’s not just the combat, it’s the entire experience. Filing into a mission briefing at 4 a.m., not knowing where you will be going until the curtain falls from the map and the mission briefing is given. Feeling the anxiety that comes with risking something, the camaraderie that comes from shared tribulations and interdependence, the pure adrenaline rush when enemy contact is made, the utter relief and letdown you feel when your wheels touch the runway, the exuberance upon seeing the results of a successful mission in the post-mission debrief, the pride of getting a second bar pinned on your collar, those are all experiences we want to capture with ToD.

[Batz]

The MT will have a limited appeal especially to the current AH  main players. Theres no doudt in that.

Rank is tool put in place to encourage the rps idea and to move people along. If you remain at the bottom and dont advance you are just a few deaths away from re-training.

You only advance if you complete your mission. So it also forces you to "participate" in the mission rather then freelance.

Read this thread as well

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87349

HT has stayed away from giving players the authority to boot people from missions and in allowing players to award mission points. The only input players have in in the evals.

For the most part if you join the mission fly it, complete it and land you will advance. Any kills you get will add to the points you get for completing the mission.

Gamey Dweebs and Sky accountants wont advance unless they fight. Hiding running and suiciding wont get you the help of the guys in the mission or futures missions that you would need to get kills and advance.

Dweeby behavior will get you bad evals as well so you may not be able to lead. They will be a "court martial" system for team killers.

Laz its everything you NEVER wanted in an arena. Its a bit rigid for me. But after doing IL2 coops I with similiar conditions I think it will be ok as long as there fights.

The arens wont be dependent on large numbers in game to make it a success. You just need enough on each side of a mission to make it fun.

But HT knows it wont appeal to all and will keep the current main gameplay intact.

[2Hawks]

Originally posted by lazs2
batz.. what is "training"  and why would you bother?   A for instance might be... guarding bombers... I would obviously go after the fighters and not care how many ai bombers got shot down... i woul get say 5 kills that sortie.  the guy who clung to the bombers going slow would probly die...

Who would get the rank?
azs

Why don't you ask the Tuskagee Airmen?

2Hawks,

[beet1e]

Excellent feedback, Batz. Sounds good, and I was particularly encouraged to see that the system won't depend on large numbers, because around the middle of the day here there are usually less than 100 people on.

I read every word of your analysis, unlike some people with shorter attention spans. Funny that someone like Lazs should start a thread about an arena he never plans to visit, and even funnier that Mr. Toad has spent time on this thread - 5 posts and counting!  Hehe, another example of the non-strat guys pontificating on issues concerning strat LOL!  Maybe Toad is just in here to follow Lazs around with the pooper-scooper, and make sure he doesn't create a situation he can't handle.

[F4UDOA]

I tell you what.

I haven't thought a whole bunch about the mission arena but after reading this thread I have a couple thoughts.

1. Being an early American allied pilot it will suck bad flying P-40B's against 109's at 25K. You might as well dive away and go home when you see the nme or just assume your going back to training.

2. If your a Pac theater fan waiting for the first Pac mission to launch after humpty squat BOB's or med theater this Kursk that or other will suck. The imbalance between PAC missions and Euro-missions in the CT is already unbearable. And then you don't get the F4U-1 in 3/4 of them. This will prevent me from being in it as it does in the CT.

3. The comment HT made about rookies getting broken airplanes and the dweebs (Perk potatos) getting uber planes worrys me a little bit. I can tell you this with no uncertainty. In the Navy/Marines there were no personized planes as it was bad for morale. Much like it could be in AH.

4. The absolute highlight of the arena will be poaching the dweebs by abandoning the bombers climbing to 30K and going straight after General Moron in his personal dweeb ride. This will insite much joy on channel 1 and nashing of teeth. The P-47D11 shall be my weapon.

Just a thought.

[Eagler]

me thinks after the initial hoopla, ah2 will be bout as popular as CT

why?

the average dweeb wants numbers to furball in so he can get his kill or two  and land them

they want to fly the plane they want to when they want to, another reason the dweebos stay outa CT

same reason the free for all and the "relaxed" rooms are most popular on other flight sims

if "missions" are time consuming, that'll cut into the numbers too

guess I'm a CT dweeb as I log on 90% of the time to find a fight, try to win it and land. don't have time for all the "stategy" stuff

hoping AH2 has "lone wolf" fighter sweeps or AI wingies so you can get in and go - not have to wait till spots fill up

[hazed-]

hopefully rank wont be just a label it will affect what you can do and what you can fly or whether you can choose your own loadout etc which makes rank important.


to me it sounds like a good thing.It certainly works for all the boxed sims ive played over the years.Those games made us fly well and try not to waste aircraft or lives by opening up more of the game as you completed the missions and lived to land them.Its a simple carrot on a stick game.show em the carrot set a puzzle/task , if they solve it/complete it?, move the carrot further along and start all over again. Its the basis of hundreds of perfectly good and ENJOYABLE games(Elite,Their finest hour,freelancer,even things like half-life use same method)

It will work and i for one look forward to it


As to whether the mob will like it who knows? It depends on how good HTC make it doesnt it

what id like to see is a sort of semi static front which is hard to move. Certain areas would have very fast running close support type of missions because they are the hot spots.Furballer types will love them because the distances will be shorter.In other areas long missons of bombing leading behind the front to hit key strategic points like factories.Other bases will be the air defence types with the fast intercept aircraft being in rolling missions.If HTC makes the missions he can make one side bomb a capital whilst simultaniously he orders a defance of the area thus garenteeing some action for all involved.Some missions could be clear of enemy organised defence but it will be random so we wont be garenteed an easy time whatever mission we join.

Remeber that whilst this goes on everyone will be trying to stay alive. no more or at least a lot less people will be willing to HO everything they see. Players will still take risks and still make mistakes but the general mode of play will favour the non suicide minded player.