How To?: Fight with a P47-C

[bustr]

How does one use a P47-C in the MA?

1.) Furballs before you get low and slow, and when you get low and slow with folks on your tail?

2.) Medium to high alt co-alt 1 on 1?

3.) How do you turn the tables on a "turn and burner" who has E and alt on your tail?

4.) Or, are the 2 other P47 versions better for ACM in AH?

I'm asking this because, though I truely love the LA7, I'm probebly relying too much on it and learning bad habits that will get in the way of flying other planes that take much more skill to master. I'm thinking the Jug or the one of the German planes will teach me more. So I begin with the Jug.

-bustr-

[Airscrew]

Bustr,  I can't help with the P47, dont fly it that much, but don't listen to the LA7 haters.  Nothing wrong with the La7

Change for yourself grasshopper.   Listen not to the unwashed masses for they are unknowing in the strange and mystical ways of the La7 and the power it holds over those who fly it and those that die from its guns.


La7 is a fine plane.   Because I flew the La7 from about September to Janaury my gunnery hit percentage improved from 6-8%  upto  13-20%.    To be good with the La7 you have to wait for your shot and it usually isnt going to be any further out than 300d when you take it.   Also it doesnt have an extreme amount of ammo you have to try an make every kill count,  and not waste shots.   This carries over now to when I fly the F4U1 and A8 and the P38.   Get close, dont waste rounds, get kills.   Only thing I miss from the La7 to the other planes are snap shots.   When you only have a blink of an instant to get a shot off when you pass each other in a turn, or timing that overshoot those 20mms are handy.    



For the P47 seek out Ammo.....everytime I run into him my plane disenigrates.

[Furball]

I am no p47 expert, but i find the P47-D11 is the finest p47 for my style of fighting. The view from it sux but it turns suprisingly well and has shedloads of ammo.

I never fly the D30, but i occasionally fly the D25 for jabo vs. gv's.

[davidpt40]

P47D-11 climbs very badly.  D-25 or D-30 is better choice.

[Soda]

The P-47D-11 is a little faster on the deck than the D25 or D30.  It climbs about the same as a D25 but not quite as well as the D30, but not good overall (kinda poor).  All P-47's can really haul at higher altitudes (around 25K a 410mph cruise speed is possible).  Acceleration down low is poor and average at mid-high alts (in the 15K+ range).

I tend to fly the D25 more than the D11 as I can't stand the front view.  Here is my take though, the P-47 takes some skill to fly and some understanding.  One typical problem is in overloading the P-47 since it's so easy to load up on high internal fuel and heavy ammo.  I tend to either take 8 guns and light ammo, or 6 guns and heavy just to knock off a bit of weight.  Drop tanks and lighter internal fuel so I can pitch of some additional weight when I get to the fight.  When light it can actually turn pretty well and if you are wise with your flap use you can really snake it around like crazy.

Speed is your friend in the P-47 so don't be shy or give up too much speed too easily.  The P-47 can't replace energy quickly so anything you burn is basically gone.  Lag style turning is important since it helps with lower G's and higher speeds.  Take snapshots, 8 guns is like the saw-of-death to most fighters.  Use your excellent roll at high speeds and play in the vertical more than the horizontal.

Dunno, that's about it.  I flew P-47 a bunch a couple of tours ago and loved it.  4 hispanos might be nice, but 8 .50's certainly get the job done in a flash too.  Check your convergence setting too, make sure you are getting the proper concentration of fire.

-Soda
Aces High Training Corps.
The Assassins.

[Hap]

don't get low & slow; the .speed command helps; my "nominal" speed is 250; i'll alter it from time to time but that's my baseline.

& w/folks on your tail, well by then there's not much to hope for less than they get discoed.  

med to hi alt 1 v 1 depends on who's flying the other plane . . . there's no advantage that won't be wasted by bad sa.  if you're against a fw maybe they'll turn-fite w/you if they do, they're dead.  47's flaps work wonders.

for someone w/e & alt who's inning from your six, again, disco or help from a buddy is what i'm hoping for.  fortunately, that doesn't happen as much as it used to.  when it does, i'm kicking myself for bad sa.  

haven't noticed much performance diff between the 30 & 25, the 11's flaps deploy at slower speed & it's a little porky-er than the other two.

what soda said about p47 loadout is correct.  i think most jug pilots are dead before they clear the runway because they've got too much everything: too many bullets (if you're dying w/more than 1/3 ammo left you're taking too much; too much gas, same general rule; & way too much ord.

for fun, take a p47 w/25% fuel & the 267 rounds per gun in 6 50 cals.  take off, hit wep & you'll find she climbs at better than 3k per min.  clear your guns of all ammo, & she climbs at 3,500 to 3,750 per min.

another thing to like about the jug in aces high are the loadout options.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by bustr
How does one use a P47-C in the MA?

1.) Furballs before you get low and slow, and when you get low and slow with folks on your tail?

2.) Medium to high alt co-alt 1 on 1?

3.) How do you turn the tables on a "turn and burner" who has E and alt on your tail?

4.) Or, are the 2 other P47 versions better for ACM in AH?

I'm asking this because, though I truely love the LA7, I'm probebly relying too much on it and learning bad habits that will get in the way of flying other planes that take much more skill to master. I'm thinking the Jug or the one of the German planes will teach me more. So I begin with the Jug.

-bustr-

Well, we don't have a P-47C. Nonetheless, all should be flown in the same manner.

If you manage to get a Jug low and slow in the immediate area of a furball, you've already screwed up.

P-47s are energy fighters, pure and simple. With that in mind, you will find them to be outstanding in that regard. However, should you get it slow in a crowd, get the nose down and scram. Extend out, climb out and return with some E in the bank.

Should you have to maneuver with enemy fighters on your tail the best you can do is deploy flaps and attempt to induce them to overshoot. Vector rolls can gain you some lateral separation and force an overshoot as well. If you have more than 3k in separation and they have more speed, turn into them and offer your pursuers a face full of fifties, then get the nose down and skeddaddle. Should you have more than 10k under you, split-S into a vertical dive. Do not pull out until below 3k. 109s, 190s and P-51s who follow you are at high risk of making big holes in the ground. I've got several kills doing exactly that when faced with higher enemies. Use their E against them. You will not hurt the Jug on the pullout (use trim if necessary), and few fighters can follow you (Spitfires can, but you will quickly out-distance them once you reach the deck). Few aircraft can zoom climb with the P-47, so if you have just one enemy chasing you, you can do a climbing reverse and gain the initiative. Just keep your turn G below 3 G or you will waste much of your energy.

This tour, I've managed to go 61/7 in Jugs (I prefer the D-30), with one loss to enemy aircraft, and that one a pray and spray hit. So, if you manage your E well and have solid SA, there's no reason why you can't maintain a good K/D in the Thunderbolt.

At high altitude, you can mix it up with anything. Above 20k the P-47D-30 is one of the best accelerating fighters in the game. Climb is good too. High-speed handling is outstanding, and as a gun platform it is almost unmatched. Just remember that you can deploy a notch of flaps at speeds up to 400 mph. Use vector rolls to cut the corner on better turning fighters. Do not hesitate to take the fight vertical. In my experience, the only fighters that can give you serious trouble above 25k are the P-38 and Ta 152. However, neither of those can follow you in a dive from that height. P-38s get into compressibility early, and Ta 152s risk losing wings trying to dive with the Jug. This is one reason why I prefer the D-30 with its speed boards (dive recovery flaps). Also consider turning off "combat trim" and trimming manually.

As I stated above, I prefer the P-47D-30. Again, it accelerates and climbs better than the other two. Add to that the speed boards and the great selection of underwing ordnance.

One more thing; never take more than 75% fuel. Add a drop tank should you need more range. Use external fuel for the climb out, then pickle the tank(s).

My regards,

Widewing

[WldThing]

Originally posted by Soda
The P-47D-11 is a little faster on the deck than the D25 or D30.

I was told the D30 is the fastest jug?

[Soda]

I was told the D30 is the fastest jug?

It's pretty close, but the D11 is actually a smidge quicker near the ground:

model      low cruise                high cruise               sea-level

P-47D-11   382@17K(1)   410@27K      344/333
P-47-D25   370@15K(1)   400@25K      340/329
P-47-D30   375@17K(1)   410@25K      340/329

I tested these numbers a while back but the P47D11 is marginally faster at sea-level  by about 4 mph.  When you looked at mid-alt cruise the D11 was a bit faster again, about 7mph and tied for high alt cruise at 410mph.  Those were "best" numbers though in different alt ranges (though close).  All P-47's had the same top speed though, 425mph with WEP at 25K.

The D30 had better acceleration across the board though as I remember.  I think the weight/power differences of the three models was all that made the difference.  Honestly 4 mph is trivial though.

-Soda

[bozon]

without WEP D11 is about 3~4 mph faster, but accelerates like an old man up the stairs.
with WEP, the D11 and D30(better WEP) are tied, D25 slightly slower.

the reason:
The D25/30 are modeled with the paddle-blade props, while the D11 isn't (so I'm told). The D11 is slightly "cleaner" aerodynamicly.

I think "netaces" had a java applet that enabled compairing these stats.

Bozon

[frank3]

Originally posted by bustr
How does one use a P47-C in the MA?

1.) Furballs before you get low and slow, and when you get low and slow with folks on your tail?

2.) Medium to high alt co-alt 1 on 1?

3.) How do you turn the tables on a "turn and burner" who has E and alt on your tail?

4.) Or, are the 2 other P47 versions better for ACM in AH?

I'm asking this because, though I truely love the LA7, I'm probebly relying too much on it and learning bad habits that will get in the way of flying other planes that take much more skill to master. I'm thinking the Jug or the one of the German planes will teach me more. So I begin with the Jug.

-bustr-

Best thing in a jug is NOT getting in furballs, just make an high speed pass and pull out to a safe level, just take advantage of speed and alt.
also the jug is an very good gun platform, if you use the 8 .50's properly you stand a very good chance of killing even spits.

If you get low and slow with somebody on your tail best thing is to pray and hope a teammate will clear yer six, otherwise you're doomed.
I prefer the D25, the speed and manoeuvrability with 6 guns is pretty good. I also like it's colour

[humble]

I've been flying the jug alot the last 10 days or so....historically I've hated the thing...but when you see it flown well you just want to bang your head against the wall one more time. This go around I made a few changes (followed Soda's advice in training forum). I'm carry the lighter loadout (8 Gun) and either 25% internal fuel or 50% with the single drop tank and 2 x 500lber's. If I'm carrying 50% I'll burn the internal aux to 25% and main to 40% then switch to DT. (if DT's are porked I'll take 50% and 3 x500. I've never run out of fuel or ammo and have killed some of everything 1 vs 1....even on the deck. It's an amazing plane to T&B/e-fight you can suprise an awful lot of folks who get in a bit to deep then cant escape those .50's. I've probably got a bunch of films...I can cull thru and post a couple.
I've even flown it at 25% from a capped field a buinch and had fun...actually like it better than 38 overall now....course you can and will get beat like a dog in it...especially while your learning the FM. I've flown all three but like the 30 best...originally was the one I hated most:)....sweet bird

[humble]

bustr...

Drex posted an article somewhere on fighting the higher E bogie...he uses something called energy convergance...basically you keep as much E as possible while forcing them to expend as much as possible till the E state "converges"...search the training forum...its in there somewhere I think. I've got some clips of T&B's vs spits, la'7's ponies and 38's where I've T&Bed and won...course got a bunch were I didnt...I'll look thu em tonight andsee if I can find a way to upload em and post a link here.

azhacker

[AtmkRstr]

Use the P47 to cherry pick and intercept low bombers.
Drop down from 15k or more onto the congo lines when they're just reaching 10k and still slow.  Repeat for 30 mins or until low on gas or brass. Land about 10 kills.

[Don]

bustr:
Contrary to some opinions I offer the opposite advice; do learn planes other than the lala. And you can come to rely on it too much. As for habits, well I'd equate habits with learning acm. But, that is up to each different paying customer; get a challenge out of the game or fly to score points.

I just started flying the P-47 (in AH its the D series and not C), and I find it a fine a/c. It is deadly due to its hvy firepower; 8 .50 cals can shred an a/c.
Gotta keep the speed up in it above 200 kias if yer in a fight, or you will be back in the tower. It is NOT a TnB a/c but, can roll very well with speed, and in a zoom after a pass, few can keep up. Humble mentioned a post by Drex and described a manner of acm otherwise known as "E-fighting"; it is less boring than Zoom and Boom, and also requires a lot of skill (also a challenge to learn).
I started flying it after I read Francis Gabreski's autobiography, and became interested in it. Gabreski described it's abilities accurately, and AH has it modeled pretty accurately.

As you know, many are flying Spits, Tiffies (for the HO) Lala's and Nikis in the arena; to each his own.
If you earn kills in a P-47 you will know it took some ability to do it, because the P-47 is a challenge to fight, especially against the lower alt TnB types.

If you get an nme on your tail and have some alt, you can easily dive away by using a zero G dive; you can even use zero G in a diving turn; The Jug dives like a stone;)
Medium co-alt fight, make sure you zero G before the merge; the other guy is going to do it as soon as he sees you, and you have got to have E at the merge, so that you can pull up or flat turn after the merge (if he doesn't try to HO you at the merge), and come around on him.
TnBers who have more E than you at the merge will be able to get around on you faster so, avoid him, either pull up and away or, zero G dive away to get a better advantage. If he comes after you then drag him up to higher alt where the Jug has a distinct advantage. The TnB ers eventually lose E as they continuously turn. As you trade alt for E, you will have more left after several merges than the TnBer will.

I fly 2 of the Jug models: D-30 and D-25. I prefer the heavier loadout of 4 .50s (1700 rounds). I set my convergence at 300.
Good luck and be patience with it. IMO it is worth the test to learn to fight it. There are many who fly it and have flown it much longer than I have, and they are very good in it. I haven't learned all its secrets yet but, I am having a lot of fun in it, and look forward to flying it each time I log on.