Too lots Trims

[Batmann]

I agree Combat Trim is not so bad. But, too lots trim systems are there in AH. Elevator trim, aileron trim, rudder trim, auto trim level, auto trim angle, auto trim speed and Combat Trim... It's not beautiful!
Real plane does not have so much trims. Bf109 has elevator trim only. Why AH has so much trims? What is true problem in flight model? I wish more smart and integrated trim system in AH.


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Batmann <CO/JG68> from Tokyo, Japan
JG68 Briefing Room
"FESSE" Far East Special Scnario Event

[Snoopi]

Separate trim for each plane as they are in the real world would solve a lot of these trim debates.

[AKSeaWulfe]

p-l-a-y-a-b-i-l-i-t-y
Remember we are catering to newbies and vets alike. The auto trims are to make it easier, this is a game after all. I'd hate to fly all around AH keeping my hand on the stick the whole time.. My bladder would explode or my mouth would dry out.

That's why all of the planes HAVE trim on every control surface, so the auto pilot feature can fly. Otherwise you could turn on auto climb but without aileron or rudder trim it ain't gonna help much.
-SW

[Snoopi]

 

Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:

That's why all of the planes HAVE trim on every control surface, so the auto pilot feature can fly.
-SW

Good point, never thought of that.

having auto trim is handy..I agree
(hard to drink or eat without it)

I was just wondering...
Aircraft with only 1 trim control sound much easier to me. You're a newbie..fly that aircraft..assuming it is easier to fly in other "areas"
(a moot point considering, as you said, the autotrim would not work without "complete" controls)

Hate to bring it up but....what about another arena for realism freaks.
Why try to fit all players into the same mold ?
I don't know why arena differences are such a touchy subject for some people.
Hard for hard's sake sucks but realism to me is a valid desire, especially since this is not Air Warrior or the same ilk.

Regards,
Snoopi

[funked]

Auto trim is there in case you need to answer the phone or get a beer or if nature calls.

[Dazs]

Auto trims for playability , I agree.
We need auto level, auto climb, reguraly to get phone. Combat trim, auto take off are needed for newbies.

But why players need to control manualy?
IMHO, Manual control trim should restrict to which each real planes had. Then check out FM algoritm around trims, it will be improved (or HT can do).

[meza]

 

Originally posted by Dazs:

But why players need to control manualy?
IMHO, Manual control trim should restrict to which each real planes had. Then check out FM algoritm around trims, it will be improved (or HT can do).

I agree that. And I think AH's flight model tends request too much trim especialy for aileron.
 

[Renfield]

I like auto trim because it lets me sneak up on you guys fixing dinner, a drink, or hitting the head.  

OK, truth be known, I've died at the hands of some dastard in each of the above scenarios myself.  

[Rickenbacker]

Well, there's always the option of restricting the planes to the trim they had historically (and I'm all for this) and then replace the autotrim with an "autopilot" which does the same things, but flies the plane using the primary control surfaces instead of trim, i.e. just like if you were still sitting there, adjusting constantly to stay at 1000fpm climb, or 180mph.

This wouldn't mean much of a change for the newbies, while also removing the age old problem of "do I have to use trim to do better in combat".

For the planes that only had trim settable on the ground (i.e. a bendable steel tab on the rudder etc) those could be set while the engine was off on the ground. Once you start up you can't change the rudder trim on those planes, f.ex. That way you can trim it to your liking then take off.



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Rickenbacker (Ricken)

-ISAF- the Independent Swedish Air Force

[Minotaur]

Rickenbacker;

This might work for you, but I do not want to fly for an hour or so pushing on my left rudder.  Nor do I want to hold left aileron the entire flight etc etc...

What players still don't understand is that the way trim works here in the game is not the way it works in a real A/C.  The reason for this is that our electronic input devices always spring return to center.

Nuetral trim in a simulation:  
A/C flies at the trimmed attitude, with the joystick/yoke/rudder centered

Nuetral trim in a real A/C:  
A/C flies at the trimmed attitude, with the stick/yoke/rudder not centered

Nuetral trim in a real A/C:  
A/C flies at the trimmed attitude, with the no pressure aplied by the pilot on the stick/yoke/rudder.

Real pilots know that they are out of trim because of the pressure they are having to apply on the controls to maintain the desired attitude.  Simulation pilots know that are out of trim because the aircraft changes attitude with no control imput. This is vastly different.

Real trim does not increase the ability of an A/C to manuver nor does it effect E loss.  Real trim effects only pilot workload by simply reducing the pressure that the pilot must apply to the stick/yoke/rudder.

Keep in mind that in a real A/C, it is always the movement of the control surfaces that effect movements of the A/C.  The stick/yoke/rudder moves at the same time and position as in relation to the control surface.  The control surface and the control device are mechically linked.  All trim does in aid the movement of a control surface in a given direction by reducing the backpressure that pilot must overcome.

This is not the case in a simulation.  In a simulation the stick/yoke/rudder remain centered.  Trim then can be used to actually manuver the A/C with no movement at all for the stick/yoke/rudder.  

A real A/C is never out of trim like a simulated A/C.  This is because in a real A/C the actual control surface must have physically moved.  Trim and pilot input have functioned together.  This is a single direct control.  

• Control directly from control surface movement

Simulated A/C have a double direct control.  Each control operates independently from the other.

• Control directly from stick/yoke/rudder movement
• Control directly from trim adjustment[/b]

Sorry for the long post!      

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Who's next?"
Naso

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 09-17-2000).]

[Batmann]

Thanks many reply. I wonder how to talk about trim well, because of my poor English.

I understood difference of movement real stick and joystick. Joystick must back to center position, but real stick doesn't always become so. It back to no presure position.

I think it's not big problem. Joystick should be a simulation of pressure to real stick, not angle in my opinion.
We have experience to feel difficult to pull up plane in the dive in AH already. We can imagine stick become heavy then. This simulation is completed by HTC already.

AH has too much trim. It's not beautiful. I want it more simple and integrated.
Does lot's trim make playability well? One auto trim --- for drinking or eating --- and some manual trim that real the plane had --- Bf109 had elevator trim only, these are enough for playability in my opinion.

Some real old planes might have side slip problem then dive --- example P40. We never feel it from AH flight model, because too much trim does too kind work.


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Batmann <CO/JG68> from Tokyo, Japan
JG68 Briefing Room
"FESSE" Far East Special Scnario Event

[Minotaur]

Batman;

I understand your concern, I have often thought about that very thing.  The only assumption that I make is that the people at HTC have been over every one of my thoughts and many more.

There must be many ways to simulate actual trim and pilot control.  They just picked the one we got.

Good Luck!  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Who's next?"
Naso