Author Topic: Oh no! Time to dumb down the Ostwind machine gun (Read 726 times)

beet1e · « **on:** May 27, 2003, 08:36:10 AM »

In this very forum, Mr. Toad has made the suggestion to dumb down the PNZR pintle gun and/or increase its vulnerability. I can see his point, but the pintle gun strength and durability should stay as it is, at least until realistic ground cover can be modelled, and trees/buildings can provide it.

Today I was in a FLAK, defending V46. Now those V-fields are pretty much indefensible against a determined jabo squadron. They got the hangar, the acks, and were working towards killing the rest of the GVs - including me. A TYPH strafed out my main turret, and my only defence was to keep moving, and hide in the map room, taking advantage of the quirk that lets me drive through the middle of it. The TYPH was unrelenting, and quite unafraid of my machine gun. He made several passes, the last one being a long one at constant trajectory. I fired on his plane with my one remaining weapon, the machine gun. A long sustained burst was sufficient to get the kill. And I see nothing wrong with that. Without that MG, I would have been completely defenseless. In WW2, I don't think tanks would be positioned as sitting ducks. Would be interesting to learn more about Rommel's campaign in N. Africa. I filmed the whole thing, and have attached the last minute of the engagement.

Does anyone see anything invalid about a FLAK machine gun killing a TYPH?

Click here for film. And Mr. Toad, please forgive my moment of exultation at the end.

Toad · « **Reply #1 on:** May 27, 2003, 08:52:15 AM »

Not the point at all Beobtuse.

The only question I would have is how many hits did it take. IE: short burst pilot kill? short burst tear the tail off previously undamaged Typh? (did someone else shoot him up earlier?) Or long burst to tear something off or multiple long bursts to tear something off and kill him?

You clearly understand that I've only talked about the lethatlity of the rifle caliber pintle guns on the GV's and the vulnerability of a person standing in an open hatch to MG and cannon fire from multiple guns.

Yet you continue to try to frame the argument as if I said those guns should never be able to kill a plane, which is a misrepresentation to swing the POV to your own. As usual.

Just argue what I said, please.

What I said is the GV rifle caliber MG pintle guns are too leathal to aircraft and the "person" standing in the turret isn't as vulnerable as he should be under fire.

Now, do you want to go film so actual tests to check this hypothesis? We can do the Osti hull gun at the same time. Note the Osti hull gunner has good protective armor, unlike his pintle gun manning mate. So that's not a factor.

beet1e · « **Reply #2 on:** May 27, 2003, 12:25:20 PM »

Muhahahahaha! Get that hook out of your chops, Bufo! I was just pulling your p***er.

No, I don't think the TYPH had been shot up by anyone else. Certainly, there were no aircraft around. Maybe there was a PNZR with a p-p-p-pintle...! But as far as I can tell, I did it on my own. Look at the film, and all your questions about length of burst will be answered. Have a look anyway; I think you'll find it interesting. The point I continue to make is that in this GAME, we so often have to deal with aircraft strafing. Maybe that was not much of a factor in WW2, and maybe that was why they didn't bother with better protection for the PNZR pintle gunner.

Pooh21 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 27, 2003, 01:21:50 PM »

The 4 8mm MGs on the Ju-88 wont damage a yak at d600 with a prolonged burst. I musta lit him up for about 10 secs
and he fly away undamaged.
A Yak rolls in on my panzer and he loses his wing after I saw 5-6 hit sprites total.

Saintaw · « **Reply #4 on:** May 28, 2003, 03:28:58 AM »

Beobtuse. *Giggles*

Torthaos · « **Reply #5 on:** May 28, 2003, 09:55:27 AM »

Same problem with the ball turret on the b17 it was the worst place to be in real life yet i can sit in it an dnot get hurt. A question though why can u not shoot ur guns on takeoff???? Doesnt make sense especially if ur airfield is under attack.

beet1e · « **Reply #6 on:** May 28, 2003, 10:14:07 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Torthaos
A question though why can u not shoot ur guns on takeoff???? Doesnt make sense especially if ur airfield is under attack.

I think that might have been another gameplay concession to stop ackstarring. But you are right. NOT modelled according to real life. Did someone say selective realism ??

Rutilant · « **Reply #7 on:** May 28, 2003, 11:14:42 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by beet1e
-snip- The point I continue to make is that in this GAME -snip-

Game, therefore it's used to prevent gameplay issues..

Explains that 'selective realism'

Yeah, you were jokin

But I see this a bit on the boards.. rather not let it bloom into an arguement

bj229r · « **Reply #8 on:** May 28, 2003, 11:27:29 PM »

anyone who strafes a GV with a dead turret from the 12:00 position (the ONLY postion said gv can fire from) deSERVES to be shot down for blatant stupidity--its not hard to avoid the hull gun

Rutilant · « **Reply #9 on:** May 29, 2003, 04:03:13 AM »

It is when said GV is turning at you, it can do a 180 faster than you can reverse after making a pass.

BenDover · « **Reply #10 on:** May 29, 2003, 09:05:05 PM »

It looks more like he augered than got shot down TBH.

F4UDOA · « **Reply #11 on:** May 29, 2003, 09:33:15 PM »

Check my post in the A/C and vehicles section.

Had a wing spar taken off my F4U with very few hits from Ju-88 tail gun.

Went to the DA with Ecke. He flew Ju-88 and I tried two different F4U's. Approx 30 rounds takes the whole wing off both times we tested.

Things that make you go HMMMM?????

beet1e · « **Reply #12 on:** May 30, 2003, 02:36:21 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by BenDover
It looks more like he augered than got shot down TBH.

Yes it does, especially if you view the film from the external position. But then again, the hull gun could have messed up his flight controls which made it impossible for him to pull up out of the bounce. That's probably what happened.

BenDover · « **Reply #13 on:** May 30, 2003, 08:47:25 AM »

Or maybe the sounds of the .30 cals hitting the plane were doing his head in.

Then again, I see he is a knight, was he eyeing up the sheep?

Shiva · « **Reply #14 on:** June 01, 2003, 12:47:12 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Torthaos
Same problem with the ball turret on the b17 it was the worst place to be in real life yet i can sit in it an dnot get hurt. A question though why can u not shoot ur guns on takeoff???? Doesnt make sense especially if ur airfield is under attack.

Actually, IIRC, the ball turret gunners had a lower casualty rate than the other positions. You were less likely to be able to get out if the plane went down, but the tucked position of the gunner and the armor plate against his back combined to provide good protection.

Bomber guns are disabled until your wheels are off the ground because it prevents people from using bombers as mobile FlaK batteries, or parking them just off the end of a runway and vulching spawning aircraft.