Author Topic: Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)  (Read 2216 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2003, 06:07:01 PM »
"Also the only fabric covered areas of an F4U are the control surfaces such as the ailerons, rudder and elavator. That's it. The main portion of the wing was stressed aluminum."

Ohh now you really dissapoint the old Corsair fan in me. :( The whole outer wing center top and bottom was fabric covered. It only became metal with the F4U-5.

Offline Ring

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2003, 05:20:19 PM »
go try this...



http://www5.playnet.com/bv/wwiiol/dg_message.jsp?group_id=8801&parent_id=2679684&page=1
 
7-Day FREE Trial 0f WWII-Online is still going on till the 9th..
if you interested in more then just air to air.. it offers the LARGEST MMPOG continous map with no "zones" and some of the unites you can play are
infantry
air
boats
tanks
scout cars
trucks
AA guns
AT guns
 
with new stuff added every patch
some of the things coming to the game are..
http://www5.playnet.com/bv/wwiiol/dg_threads.jsp?group_id=8821
 
 
if you want to check out some screen shots go look here...
 
http://www.tgpo.net/images/fun/SwgCompareSmall.jpg
 
 
 
 
 
A new 7-day FREE trial kicked off today powered by our friends at GIGEX.

Now's the time to tell your buddies to download and try WWII Online for FREE.

Once a player ends his 7-day FREE trial, he can purchase an activation key for $19.99 and get another 30 days of playtime before the monthly subscription fee of $12.99 kicks in. There's no need to go find a retail box, now they can buy online!

Here's a list of important links:
- Download the FREE Trial at Gigex
- Trial FAQ
- Download complete, how do I create an account?
- I didn't get the registration e-mail
- WWII Online System Specs

- AXIS HIGH COMMAND
- ALLIED HIGH COMMAND


since most of us play more then 1 game i though some of you would be intrested...
 
this is the map


« Last Edit: June 01, 2003, 05:22:48 PM by Ring »

Offline Puke

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 759
      • http://members.cox.net/barking.pig/puke.htm
Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2003, 06:46:06 PM »
I think it may just be how AH decides to graphically represent the damage...catastrophic failure and the wing is removed.  But saying that, from my own personal experience, the F4U's shed their wings more easily than any other aircraft I have experience with.  Even the A6M2 can sustain more damage and those things should pop just from looking at them.  Literally...there is tons of anectodal evidence as to that.

Offline F4UDOA

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1731
      • http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html
Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2003, 07:58:33 PM »
Puke,

I am noticing a strange trend on the message board.

It seems as if any technical discrepincy is delt with by being dismissed as whining.

I can produce documents, online testing, annecdotes and common sense. I get back Shakespear and a guy who wants to go shoot sheet metal targets at 100 yards.

This is something I can duplicate at 300YRDS in the DA.

Somehow this thread has turned into me defending the wing surface of and F4U and a quote from a japanese ace.

Funny thing I don't think many of these people even play the game.

Offline Puke

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 759
      • http://members.cox.net/barking.pig/puke.htm
Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2003, 09:25:59 PM »
Well, we are just flying representations of aircraft.  The differences are good enough to where you can say the Corsair in here flies much more like a Corsair than the BF109, but still, its only pixelations and code and so there can be many, many errors as compared to the histories we've read.  The statement I made about the hog is from both sides of the coin.  I used to fly her a lot, and the wing seemed to want leave the fuselage a lot whenever hit.  But I've also seen it when fighting against a hog, I've hit them with a good spray and I'll watch as a wing leaves the fuselage a good majority of times.  In appearance, this seems wrong to me based on everything I've read, but I just chalk it up as to being catastrophic damage which AH represents as just dropping the wing from the fuselage whether that would've really happened or not.  But I think the whining comes from the fact that we all have our favorites and most probably specialize in a particular genre of World War II...I know much more about the USA aircraft than any other country's aircraft.  Also, some people on here want to argue just about anything, even if they can produce some anomoly in data or historical record against you or nitpick one little word you use in your statement.  Anyway, I take that as the tug-of-war and ebb-and-tide that is necessary to come to the truth of something.  Still, I'm with you and the Corsair just doesn't strike me as being as sturdy as I feel it should be based on my readings...but what bothers me more than that, the Zeke is too sturdy in here and should pop!

Sorry for my ranting novel.

Offline F4UDOA

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1731
      • http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html
Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2003, 10:53:57 PM »
Puke,

I would luv to do some more test in the DA.

There is another thread about the pintle gun of the Ostie being to strong. So Im wondering if it is the 30 cal in AH or the F4U damage model.

The funny thing is I really dont expect to make any major changes in AH with all of the work going into AH2. But it surprises me all of the negative feedback you can get when pointing out something that is relatively obvious.

Offline rshubert

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1462
TESTING RESULTS
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2003, 08:56:37 AM »
I performed the tests mentioned in my earlier post yesterday afternoon.  The results were as predicted.  All rounds from the .30-06 and 8mm penetrated.  About half were deflected, from 5 to 20 degrees.  None of the 8m bullets (190 gr. boat tail spire point spitzers) showed evidence of "upset", which surprised me.  About half the .30-06 rounds did, evenly distributed between the AP and Ball loads.  Upset increased as the angle increased.  Interestingly, there was a disk of aluminum spalled off from the test coupon in every case (except .45 ACP) that also penetrated the 1/4" plywood backer 1 meter behind the test coupon.  In every case, the test coupon was deformed to a greater or lesser degree by the passage of the bullet.

Two real surprises:  I tried some .30 carbine lead loads, and they penetrated!  My expectation was that they would not.  I also shot a .45 acp round at one coupon.  It did not penetrate, but deformed the aluminum more than any of the more powerful rounds that did.  In fact, the coupon was broken in two.

The 8mm rounds were shot from a Turkish mauser, 24 in barrel, pretty typical.  The .30-06 rounds were shot from an M1 Garand.  The carbine rounds were fired from an M1 Carbine, typical WW2 issue.  The .45 ACP roundw were fired from a Colt 1911A1.

Conclusions:

1.  Penetratioon would be no problem.
2.  Deflection would be.  The path of the bullet is unpredictable after penetrating the aluminum skin of the plane.
3.  The spalled disk could create further damage to the plane.
4.  Upset bullets could add greatly to the damage caused by the gunfire.

Offline F4UDOA

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1731
      • http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html
Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2003, 09:20:58 AM »
Dude,

1. Do you think at three hundred yards the bullets would penetrate.

2. You said your shooting was off with open sights at long range. How yard would it be for you to hit the same spot on a wing spar at that range?

3. How hard would it be if the target were moving and your firing platform were moving?

4. What does any of this have to do with my post?

Offline rshubert

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1462
Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2003, 01:39:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA
Dude,

1. Do you think at three hundred yards the bullets would penetrate.

2. You said your shooting was off with open sights at long range. How yard would it be for you to hit the same spot on a wing spar at that range?

3. How hard would it be if the target were moving and your firing platform were moving?

4. What does any of this have to do with my post?


Answers:

1.  Yes.  Definitely.  Comparing muzzle energy in joules between the 8mm round and the .30 carbine round, the 8mm round has about 75000 joules, and the .30 carbine round about 11000.  That is a 7:1 ratio.  Yet the .30 carbine round penetrated at 100 yards.  I'll check the ballistics tables when I get home, but it would seem to me that the 8mm bullet would be MUCH, MUCH more than energetic enough at, say, 1000 yards.  The problem would be hitting anything at that range.

2.  I shot the rifles at 100 yards.  I could hit a wing spar at that range.  The test coupons were 6 " x 1-1/2" or so.  I missed four times out of 18 shots fired, twice with the M1 carbine (open sights), twice with the M1 Garand (open sights) and zero times with the 8mm Mauser (scoped).

The pistol was fired at about 10 yards, since there ain't a chance in hell that I could hit something that small at 100 yards with a government model, except by luck.

3.  Harder, but that's why they give us guns on the planes that shoot 800 round per minute per gun, or whatever number for a particular gun is applicable.  People do hit other planes in this game.  The statistics for each player show the hit percent he gets when firing a-a weapons.  Mine is about 6 % in fighters.  If I am "typical", then a five-second burst from 3 MG15s at 800 rpm per gun (that's a guess)  would give me 200 hits on your plane.  Remember that all guns in the formation that will bear on you fire at you when going up against a bomber vee, with aim just as good as the lone gunner's.  If you get hit by one of them, you get hit by all of them.  The downside for the gunner is that he can only engage one fighter at a time.  I try to keep out of the gunner's sights, since he has a real death ray there.

4.  You are the one that brought up the question of how much damage is done by rifle-caliber mg bullets to airplane structures.  If the experimental information is of help, good.  If not, sorry.

Offline rshubert

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1462
One other point...
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2003, 01:50:34 PM »
F4UDOA, I noticed that you seem to put a lot of emphasis on the "stressed aluminum" nature of the F4U's skin.  You may have a misconception what that means.

"Stressed skin" construction simply means that the skin provides some of the structural integrity of the part.  That's as opposed to fabric-covered skinning, where the covering provides no structural strength to the object.

If you take the skin off the wing of a fabric covered plane, the structure will bear the same load as with the skin in place.  If you take the skin off a stressed-skin airplane, the structural integrity is compromised, and the part is very weak.

Offline F4UDOA

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1731
      • http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html
Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2003, 03:37:26 PM »
On the contrary rshubert,

I place no value on the armor protective qualities of the aircraft skin.

My mistake was quoting a Japanese ace that made the comment about the .30 cal ammo bouncing off. I was simply making light of the useless nature of the weapon in combat. It never even crossed my mind that aluminum sheets could or would provide any armor protection what so ever or that I would somehow get stuck defending his statement.

However I think you are ignoring the important pieces of information here. I''l list them if you whish to address them.

1. The shooter in a tail gunned position is shooting from a moving platform.

2. The target is moving.

3. The target is at 300yards.

4. The target is at a head on position. You are firing at the front of the leading edge of the wing by the fuselage. This area is about 1" thick.

5. The inside of the wing while not only being re-enforced metal is surrounded by

A. Oil coolers
B. The landing gear
C. The flaps while retracted.
D. The wing locking and folding mechanism.

Plus annecdotally

A. The F4U had a better record for surviving AA than the F6F Hellcat. (From the NAS)

B. At least one Japanese pilot thinks his ammo did not penatrate the aluminum skin at all angles of the F4U.

Take these peices of information and combine them with

1. I can take the wing off a F4U in the DA with approx 30 rounds of ammo from one Ju-88 tail gun consistantly at 300yards.

2. There is at least one other thread currently active on the AH boards right now about the hitting power of the Osty hull gun which is also a .30cal.

3. The resilient nature of other A/C in AH such as the A6M5.

Add it up and I think there is a problem relative to either the DM of the F4U or the hitting power of the .30 cal.

Offline Tony Williams

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 725
      • http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2003, 03:41:20 PM »
A comment on the accuracy of guns in WW2:

Most aircraft guns were not very accurate, especially recoil-operated ones. This was because the priorities were a high rate of fire and good reliability, both of which were aided by loose tolerances. Loose tolerances are not compatible with accuracy.

The .303 Brownings as used in RAF fighters achieved 75% of shots within 5 mils accuracy (that is, within an 18" circle at 100 yards). They needed a circle a yard wide to cover all of the bullets fired. This was fairly typical.

Ground tests of the .50 MGs in a B-24 showed accuracies varying between 10 and 20 mils at 600 yards for the turret guns, and no less than 35 mils for the waist guns - that is, ten feet at 100 yards!

This illustrates the fact that hand-aimed, flexibly-mounted guns were highly inaccurate, even when fired on the ground at a stationary target. Factor in aircraft movement, target movement and the battering of the slipstream against the gun barrel, and it's easy to see why such guns rarely shot down anything.

If the B-24's waist guns are typical (and I have no reason to suspect otherwise) than at the 300 yards range you're talking about a burst of fire which would have been spread across a circle of thirty feet diameter even under ideal conditions. I'll leave you to work out how many shots you'd have to fire to have a significant number hit the same spot on a wing which is edge-on to you.....

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6864
Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2003, 04:36:22 PM »
Are this the results from the tests you mentioned Tony?

B-17:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 21' - 11.7mils
chin turret > dia. 23' - 12.6 mils
waist(closed) dia. 26' - 14.3mils
side nose > dia. 34' - 18.7mils
tail turret > dia 45' - 25mils


B-24:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 20' - 11.2mils
nose turret > dia. 23' - 12.9mils (Emerson)
nose turret > dia. 35' - 19.3mils (Motor Prod.)
waist(closed) dia. 23' - 12.9mils
waist(open) dia. 63' - 35.6mils
tail turret > dia 35' - 19.3mils

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2003, 04:45:49 PM »
The rifle sized mg's in AH is grossly undermodeled compared to the .50 cal. class weapons. This I think is in part due to to the simplistic damage model. Do I think 30 rounds of .30 cal would rip a wing of? No ... not even on a zeke. I have seen some 190's loose a wing due to ammo explosion, and a lot of flaming zekes (their main weakness was lack of self-sealing fuel tanks), but I have rarely seen planes loose major components like a wing to mg or hmg fire. Somtimes with cannon fire.

AH models absolute damage to all structural components AFAIK, meaning the component (wing in this case) doesn't loose integrity gradually like in RL, but continues to be just as strong untill it is damaged beyond it set limit ... and then fails completely. Those few guncam films where I have seen wing failure like this were in either high G load turnfights or high speed tailshots, where the stress of G or aerodynamic force ripped the weakened wing off.

A .50 cal. round do not do much more damage to a structure like a wing than a .30 cal. round. This is because both rounds have sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate and completely pass through the structure, even a heavy aluminum wing spar. The .50 cal is of course much more powerful, but it has no way of transfering all that kinetic energy to structural damage. A human being has the consistency of jello. The reason why a rifle round does more damage than a pistol round is because the higher kinetic energy of the rifle round causes more hydro shock in the human body (like shooting a baloon filled with water). Against a sheet of aluminum both rounds would do much the same damage if they both penetrated, the rifle bullet will just fly farther off into the woods. As Rshubert found out the .45 cal. pistol round actually did more damage to the sheet/structure by not penetrating because it was thus capable of transfering all it's energy to the target rather than just punching a small hole.

The reason the .50 cal. round was better at shooting down planes has nothing to do with the structure of the planes. The .50 cal. was more effective at causing critical component damage. At good angles the a .50 AP(I) round will crack the engine block, penetrate cockpit armor, the higher kinetic energy has a greater chance of rupturing self-sealing fuel tanks due to increased hydro shock, the projectile is bigger and thus capable of carrying more incendiary chemical power which increases the chanse of setting fire to fuel, hot engine oil and some hydraulic fluids.

Aluminum is a very good material to use in lightweigth loadbearing structures, but it is soft and suceptible to damage. The MG3 is chamered for the 7.62x51mm NATO round, which is somewhat less powerfull than the 7.92x57mm Mauser or the .303 British (7.7×56mm). The M113 APC has more than 1.5 inch hardened aluminum side armor which is sufficient to stop rifle sized ball rounds at all but the shortest ranges. I have personally shot a 50 round belt of AP at the side of a M113 at 400 meters (437 yards), not one round glanced off or failed to penetrate, and they did some impressive damage bouncing around the interior. So a .30 will penetrate the wing spar of an F4U. Would 30 rounds rip a wing off? nope. Will 30 .50 cal. rounds rip a wing off? nope. Will 30 HE cannon rounds rip a wing of? yes, probably.

My .2 cal... err, $
« Last Edit: June 02, 2003, 04:48:16 PM by GScholz »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2003, 04:56:10 PM »
Side note: We also shot some .50 cal MP ammo at that 113. Didn't do much more damage (but some since the MP has a HE component), but went straight through the other side of the vehicle. :)
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."