Bomber gun madness(Tony Williams please)

[F4UDOA]

Had a really bizarre experiance in the MA today that got me a little upset.

I intercepted a flight of JU-88's at 10K in an F4U-1D. Made an approach at about 350MPH and the bombers were level at about 250MPH or what ever the top speed at that alt is for them.

I made a pass from my right to left closing in on the bomber V formation. By the time I got to 500yards I started receiving hits and by 300yards my right wing was gone.

One pass, about 30 to 50 hits of .30 cal and my wing fell off.

I would bet that even at extreme close range there is no way possible that a .30 machine could spit in two the main wing spar of an F4U that is rated for 7G's at 12,000LBS.

I went to the DA with Ecke and tested this and duplicated this by finding in the F4U-1 and F4U-1D it took approximately 30 rounds from the tailgunnerof a single JU-88 to knock the wing off of an F4U. Ecke was in the JU-88 and I was in the F4U so my film is from my side. I was closing very slowly and still of it came quick.

What gives??

BTW, annecdotadally Japanese pilots have said that their .30cal would bounce off of the stressed aluminum skin of the F4U.

[Pooh21]

Wth? My Ju-88s tailguns are next to useless. 1000 rounds into the nose and #3 engine of a b-17 at close range didnt damage him. The single 30 cal in the front  is almost useless takes around 5 seconds  to do anythinng to enemy. You wanna talk pork everytime I come near a Ki-67 1 single 20mm will break something every single hit.

[Dr Zhivago]

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87742

[Sakai]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
I made a pass from my right to left closing in on the bomber V formation. By the time I got to 500yards I started receiving hits and by 300yards my right wing was gone.

One pass, about 30 to 50 hits of .30 cal and my wing fell off.

You were under fire from between 3-9 guns so you were hit by more than that.  With a twist of his wrist a gunner can alter the formation and suddenly you are under fire from more gunes.  You might have started a great angle of attack but had it spoiled by your enemies moves.  Need to juke a bunch when attacking buffs from the rear.

Also, multiple hits increases the stress on the target, so what you see is a cumulative effect from numerous hits, not teh weight of one hit in isolation viewed against a plane's rated strength.  If you come into a guy's 88 formation tail on the proper angle, he is putting 6-9 8mms on you and considering that you were moving at 350 your craft wasn't under "static stress" conditions.  

I can tell you that at times when I gun 88s, if a guy does what you described and I lead him just right as he comes in, he is hit with a fire-hose like effect of lead and if he wasn't sawn into pieces it would be ridiculous.

I have killed 5-8 enemies in 88 formations because they wandered directly into the line of fire at speeds which allowed me to concentrate on them singly.

To attack formations: best at higher speeds, steeper angles, from blind spots (the side and directly below the 88s or in front is good as well).  Bringing a buddy is far preferable to attacking alone, one of you will score hits on your pass.

Sakai

[F4UDOA]

Sakai,

I have two problems with your theory.

1. I was coming in at a sharp angle accross the back of the formation so I was only really exposed to fire from one bomber unless they were shooting through each other. By the time I got to the cnter of the box my wing was gone. My rate of closure was so fast there was no way possible for the gunner to change positions to re-aquire me as I crossed behind the formation anyway.

2. Even more importantly I was able to duplicate this in the DA with only one JU-88 using 30 rounds of ammo. Both times he took my wing off.

I went to Tony Williams Gun Tables and the JU-88's 7.7MIL gun doesn't even have a HEI or Incendiary round. And the armor penatration is almost Zero. There is no way I should have lost a main wing spar.

And this was done with a single 7.7 machine gun from 300yards repeatedly in the DA with approx 30 rounds.

[Sakai]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
2. Even more importantly I was able to duplicate this in the DA with only one JU-88 using 30 rounds of ammo. Both times he took my wing off.

I went to Tony Williams Gun Tables and the JU-88's 7.7MIL gun doesn't even have a HEI or Incendiary round. And the armor penatration is almost Zero. There is no way I should have lost a main wing spar.

And this was done with a single 7.7 machine gun from 300yards repeatedly in the DA with approx 30 rounds.

Well, your DA experience sounds more interesting than does your MA experience, in my gunning in 88 formations, as I noted, you move the plane at all and the guy is a viable target for all 9 rear guns.  I watch guys come in all the time in perfect line of sight and they always say "how did you hit me!" as if tehy could not possibly have exposed themselves nor I juked the plane to expose them.  Also, you don't kill everything that flys up yer butt, let me assure you, you have to lead them just right or they can make repeated passes on you.  I tatter people in weaker planes repeatedly when I have a Stuka, Val, Kate, etc. and I almost never get a kill.  You do undertsand that on the single Ju88 all three rear facing guns will fire, no?  So you are not getting hit by a single gun so you might try seeing if 30 rounds from the Panzer pintle will destroy a wing.  It won't.  

Or, try it at 300 yards from say a Val or Kate.  You won't tear a wing off an F4U with 30 rounds--it won't happen.

The idea that 8mms don't penetrate planes is also not accurate.  The force of striking planes repeatedly will weaken and break it up.  Many a pilot and plane was lost to .30 cal fire in that war.  How many planes were shot down by rifles when strafing troops?  More than one I wager.  

Sakai

[F4UDOA]

Sakai,

Your right about loosing planes to 30 cal fire. But not loosing a main wing spar. That was one piece of dense re-enforced metal on most planes and especially on the F4U which was built to withstand the force of carrier landings.

I have read of oil coolers, radiators etc. but not Wing spars.

Also there is no errosive effect of shooting armor with a light machine gun. Using that theory you could shoot through a tank if you hit it enough times with 30 cal. I think that was an error in the AH damage model for tanks that would allow MG fire to kill tanks. Maybe some of that logic applies to the A/C damage model as well.

I would luv to go to the DA with you and try it. I would test the Ju-87 as well.

I'm betting that .30 cal from the Ju-87 takes the wing off too with about the same number of rounds. Whish I could test this myself.

[Sakai]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
Sakai,

I would luv to go to the DA with you and try it. I would test the Ju-87 as well.

I'm betting that .30 cal from the Ju-87 takes the wing off too with about the same number of rounds. Whish I could test this myself.

Let's do that because this sounds like a bad problem to me.  Could it simply be the Ju88 guns?

Sakai

[CMC Airboss]

This experience has been shared by many people that attack ground vehicles armed with the same 7.9mm fired from German vehicles.  I have also inflicted cripling damage on aircraft with a pintle gun on single passes.  Those weapons are quite effective against targets that are approaching head-on.  

MiG

[Sakai]

Originally posted by CMC Airboss
This experience has been shared by many people that attack ground vehicles armed with the same 7.9mm fired from German vehicles.  I have also inflicted cripling damage on aircraft with a pintle gun on single passes.  Those weapons are quite effective against targets that are approaching head-on.  

MiG

Yes, if a guy comes in on a steady trajectory and you lead him right you land a great many hits, but I GV a ton and I shoot down many, many AC with them and I rarely get them as outright kills--most often they crash trying to strafe me or I and others hit them.  Sometimes, after a few passes, I will get them but I rarely knock a wing off.  

Sakai

[hazed-]

F4UDOA why not try the same thing with other planes to see if it happens to them too.

I think AH uses a culmalative DM myself. It doesnt seem to matter what hits you, if it hits enough it will break anything.

It seems to me each section of the aircraft model, be it tail or wingtip or wing, has its own sort of 'hit points' which are taken away with each hit, at least it feels like that.
 A single hit sprite doesnt necessarily mean a single bullet either so its hard to be sure whats really going on. maybe the bullets that hit you are totaled up rather than added as individual hits. If you put 30 rds of 7.9mm or 1 or 2 rounds of 20mm you get the same effect? perhaps AH's model of aircraft doesnt model the wingspars in so much as it just makes the 'area' around the spar a little more durable than the wingtip areas to simulate it being stronger.The model must be hard to get right, I mean to actually model accurately every part of every aircraft would be an impossible task so you take the most important or significant areas instead like fuel tanks or pilot cockpit or tail section or elevator etc etc.The more they do they better it gets but there has to be a limit to it somehwere.

I think this may just be a visual effect to basically show the player youve taken too many hits. you get hit 50 times and the hits are all over your aircraft.The computer sees that 30 rounds have hit in one section(by the wing spar) it adds up the damage which exceeds its strength. It then has a choice of displaying wingtip damage,whole wing damage, engine fire or flaps blown off etc.Each when you think about it are just graphical visual clues for us to show damage so maybe its silly to expect hundreds of different 'damaged grapics' to be shown.
Perhaps you should just imagine you just lost your controls through damaged cables etc from 30 bullets tearing through the wires and accept AH will just show your wing missing to represent it.

I find it a rare occasion that ju88s get kills and a lot of the time i fly them i hit targets with hundreds of rounds.The common thing is they ignore the fire and plow in regardless, they soon die when 9 guns hit them even in their fast dives.Personally i think if this guy skillfully lead his shots and hit me fairly with 30 to 50 rds concentrated on one spot on my wing id expect to lose something vital and if i was the gunner  Id expect a kill for getting it.
If it was a bug then its more than likely the f4u with too weak an area than the ju88 having too powerful guns the ju88 guns are pea shooters.

check the f4u DM

[rshubert]

Remember, there is NO armor on the wing of a plane.  It is built to take a steady, evenly distributed load of x g's, but any damage to the structure weakens it considerably.  Poking holes in the wing spars (aluminum extrusions or machined parts) will make them weak enough to break.  An F4U-1  wing SHOULD fail with "30 to 50" .30 cal holes in it.  The folding outer part was fabric covered, and is actually tougher against hits that miss the structure.  If the spar or formers got hit, the structure would be destroyed.  This doesn't even count the damage from the airstream when the holes open up and increase the drag.  For the effects of a 300 mph wind, see "tornado".

If japanese pilots reported that .30 rounds bounced off American planes, they were drinking too much sake.  There's no way a thin aluminum skin will stop a rifle bullet.

[Urchin]

It could probably 'skip' off of it depending on the angle it hit at.  

By the way, the Val and Kate have .50 caliber rear guns in AH, not .30 caliber.  They'll kill anyone dumb enough to run up their butt no problem, if they can shoot straight.

[Karnak]

F4UDOA,

You are simply encountering the way AH models damage.

My roomate and I tested the Lancaster's wing by shooting just the 50 cals from a P-38L at it.

It takes 12 rounds of 50 cal to completely sever the wing of one of the toughest heavy bombers of WWII.  Just twelve.

It isn't unique to the Ju88 and it isn't unique to the F4U, which you'd have seen if you weren't so pressed to find errors in the F4U and had tested other fighters as a control.

[davidpt40]

Poor damage modeling.