Bomber gunners

[Stang]

Not sure if anyone has posted anything on this yet, but I am hopeful that HT will change the modelling on buff guns.  IMO, they are way too accurate because of the lack of any kind of recoil.  You can spray a perfectly straight line of tracers at a bandit and blow him out of the sky at distances well over 1,000 yards and that is just total bs.  I'm not even sure if buff guns in WW2 shot as far as they do in AH.  Saw on the Discovery Wings channel that German cannons had a farther range than B17 guns(how accurate that claim is I do not know), and if that is true, then buff guns would have to be limited to a distance of like 700 yards or less.  Add to the fact that HT is planning for masive numbers of buffs in missions for AH2 and there is clearly a problem.  I think all it would take would be some kind of realistic shake to the guns when they fire so it won't be like shooting a super soaker at a fat kid anymore.  Any thoughts?

[Sakai]

Originally posted by Stang
Not sure if anyone has posted anything on this yet, but I am hopeful that HT will change the modelling on buff guns.  IMO, they are way too accurate because of the lack of any kind of recoil.  

Some recoil should be modeled to be sure.

I have never seen anyone killed at 1000 yds with buff guns and I fly them often.  I see guys who know how to attack buffs and guys who don't.  Guys who don't get sawn into pieces.  Guys who do know how can usually pick off one to all the buffs.  Guys who hang out behind buff formations should die.  

Sakai

[muckmaw]

HT said recently that there is a certain amount of recoil involved in the firing of guns, and that is taken into account, but he was speaking of fighters, and I'm not sure if Bombers were included.

I know there is a certain amount of dispersion on Buff guns, which would simulat the loss of accuracy due to recoil.

Test it out with the .target 1000 command in the TA.

Meanwhile, you need to submit some type of documentation that backs up your argument. Otherwise, it's baseless.

Something you heard on D-wings does not qualify.

German cannons may very well have had more range than american 50's, but there is the question of the attack.

If you've got a 109 coming up behind a B-17, the 109's bullets have to travel faster and farther to catch the 17, whereas the 17's rounds are being fired at a target which is flying into them.

Smart pilots know how to attack buffs and win everytime. Lazy pilots die to buff guns. If you plan the attack out, and do it properly, no buff gun in the world will be able to stop you.

If a pilot comes crawling up the 6, with 3 sets of stingers pointed at him, what do you think will happen?

I fly buffs alot, and I never open fire before 800 yds. THe guns are not accurate above 1k. I used to hit tarets at this range, but it was never enough to bring the bandit down, and it onoly made him go evasive. I prefer to let him creep in, and think I don't see him, until the time that he is in the kill zone.

But once again, a smart fighter pilot will win almost every time.

[JB73]

Originally posted by Sakai
Some recoil should be modeled to be sure.

I have never seen anyone killed at 1000 yds with buff guns and I fly them often.  Sakai

i just watched JB42 my CO get both wings shot off his plane @ 1600 yds from a B17.... thats a few feet short of a MILE. and no it was not low 6 oclock it was going past and high in front.

IMHO there is something wrong with that.

[Sakai]

Originally posted by JB73
i just watched JB42 my CO get both wings shot off his plane @ 1600 yds from a B17.... thats a few feet short of a MILE. and no it was not low 6 oclock it was going past and high in front.

IMHO there is something wrong with that.

There is something seriously wrong with that.  I could never hit a guy that far out, and I have never been hit by a bomber outside 800 yds that I can recall.

Sakai

[hyena426]

800 yards? wow you havent run into the bomber pilots i have,,hehe  there is one guy called dad somthing gots a great score on aces high,,,i allmost think he is hacked,,{but not sure},,because every time i run into him,,he will hit you from atleast 14k out!! and im not joking,,lol maybe ill have to record next time i run into him,,,,i would even be flying on the side about 15k from him,,and he got my motor! and at most i was lucky to get in range to kill one of his bombers,,and i never attacked it from the back,,lol


i know how to attack bombers killed many of them,,but i know what some people are saying,,once and a while ill run into a bomber who will hit you from unbeleveble distances,,,unless i got help around they will kill you every time no matter what angle of attack you use,,its bullarkie,,hehe

and when im flying a bomber i know i cant hit anyone from more than 1000 yards my self,,sooooo i dont know what kinda shells there using,,,its allmost like the flak tanks my squadies ran into,,the guy cleaned are clocks at 18k before we could even get in range,,lol,,and they would hit us with accuracy from outragous distances

[JB73]

hyena .. i believe you mean 1.8k and 1.4k right ....?

18k you are 12k out of icon range still

back befor the JB's went to the LW only rule (about a year ago) we were allowed to fly all planes to get acclimated to the game. when i flew b17's i would start firing @ about 1.5 and get hits easy.

oh well my 2¢

[muckmaw]

From my experience, It's really a waste of ammo to fire outside of 1.2k. That's the longest I've ever hit a plane from. I'd rather wait until they are inside the envelope and use my ammo wisely.

Perhaps the Buff guns are uber. I don't know. I have no facts to back it up. I will ask a former B-17 Pilot on Sunday. He may not remember, but I'll ask.

Remember too, this is a game. Perhaps if the buff guns are over modeled, it's as a gaming concession. I mean, how many ME-163's and ME-262's saw service in WWII? Yet the sky is flooded with them whenever I go on an HQ raid.

*shrugs*

[Sakai]

Originally posted by muckmaw
From my experience, It's really a waste of ammo to fire outside of 1.2k. That's the longest I've ever hit a plane from. I'd rather wait until they are inside the envelope and use my ammo wisely.

Remember too, this is a game. Perhaps if the buff guns are over modeled, it's as a gaming concession. I mean, how many ME-163's and ME-262's saw service in WWII? Yet the sky is flooded with them whenever I go on an HQ raid.

*shrugs*

Yep.

Sakai

[Revvin]

Originally posted by muckmaw
Remember too, this is a game. Perhaps if the buff guns are over modeled, it's as a gaming concession. I mean, how many ME-163's and ME-262's saw service in WWII? Yet the sky is flooded with them whenever I go on an HQ raid.

*shrugs*

I know how you feel, my squad mainly go after strategic targets as HT once said he'd like to see bombers operate in an interview some time ago but most of the strat targets have little effect on the overall war and the only one that does is swamped by these jet monsters whenever a bomber is seen. I'm hoping they won't be so much of a problem if HTC are going to try and simulate certain era's in AHII:TOD. Many of the bombers we have in AH are just not equiped to operate in an arena with so many late war machines.

I'd like to also see some kind of auto gunner or at least an AI spotter in each plane to call cons in the radio buffer like another sim has or maybe even some pre recorded warning ie "con 12'oclock high" etc etc much like the field under attack warning. At least if a con was called by an AI spotter it would give us time to jump from the pilot seat to the correct gunner position or from the bombardier position.

[BenDover]

tut, tut, hyena.

Are you forgeting about your old buddy Ben?

I constantly kill fighters crawling up my low 6 at 1.6k, possibly more. And fighters flying parrel and trying to climb above me at 1.4k

My personal record for a kill dead 6 was 1.7k.



I decided to do a little expiriment, on the deck the maxium range of the b17s tail gun is about 1.75k
At 10k: 1.8k
20k: 1.95k
30k: An amazing 2.5k!

[MANDOBLE]

Stang, in this game it is common to take off with buffs to use them as airborne and deadly ack flying at very low level. Usually these buffs are far more effective than the defender fighter lo level CAP.

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by muckmaw
From my experience, It's really a waste of ammo to fire outside of 1.2k.

Muck, it depends on altitude. At 25k you can hit farther than 1.7K with the B17 50"s. At sea level, 1100 yards is a common range to score the first hits (usualy catastrophic).

[muckmaw]

Thanks for the tip!

I never even thought to compare the ballistics at differring altitudes.

I would have to think, though I could be wrong, that if HT took into account the density of air on projectiles, he must have done some homework on the range of Bomber defensive guns.

[Shadowsim]

To many nme pilots approach at a dead six oclock position, head ons and slashing attacks take practice. Any buff driver worth his metal should never lose one on one to a fighter(of course im refering to the flying fortress) I say this but have died countless times, usualy to more than one fighter, and usualy to temps,,,,god knows i hate them cannons.