A hand with the P38.......

[Hammerhead]

I have been flying the P38 a lot lately and i find it to be quite a nice bird......however i keep getting killed over and over by the same planes: Spit 14, Nik, La7 and the occasional well flown Spit9.

My standard move is to start an immelman at 300mph or at d2.0k whichever is first and then dive in on them and use the 20mm up close. (my gunnery isnt that good so i have to go close). Then dive away and repeat.

Works well enough with most planes but with these:

The spit 14 seems to zoom up right behind me in my immelman, whilst the niks and LA7 tend to outrun me in my dive. (i usually dive upto 450mph, to avoid compression)

Just yesterday i was at 15k when a nik appeared out of the blue at my 9 o clock at d3.0 and moved on to my 6 as i dived. Throughout the dive (from 300mph to 450mph) the nik was gaining ground and finally got me at d900.

Can anyone give me some tips as to what im doing wrong??

I have read somewhere tht killing LA7 is to go slow and scissor, but whenever i have tried the La7 refuses to go slow and ends up BnZooming me.......

[bozon]

This was a p-38 learning tour for me as well. Once I learned what I can/can't do with it, it turned out to be a GREAT fighter.

vs. La7 - they have to get pretty close with their guns, so if they dive in at 450mph, they are easy to avoid. Ofcourse, if all they want it to take a shot and run, there's not much you can do about it. I find it easier to kill them on the deck where they can't just dive away from me. Around 20k the 38 will beat the easily, but the'll run away diving. Most La7 drivers aren't that good, so that solves part of the problem.

vs. nik - This is one of the best nik busters as long as you dont start at a total disadvantage. Use their over-eagerness to HO and yank on their stick, to drain their E. Your zoom is totaly and utterly superior to their if you start it over 300 mph. spiral at the end of the zoom if they start spraying - and they will!
Also, the only way to make a nik stall is if you force it to zoom straight up.

vs. spits - pretty much the same as the niks. the 9 and 14 are ok to turn with a little, but I wouldn't try it vs the 5. I didn't fight any spit 14 but it's faster and climbs much better then the 38. It has a real torque issue you can use to your advantage - always turn/spiral then to the left.

As I said, the p-38 has an amazing zoom (on the verge of suspicious) use it.

The P-47 is still more fun though
Bozon

[Ack-Ack]

Here are some P-38 films I posted awhile back that might help you out.

P-38 Films

More P-38 Films

And here's a thread about the P-38 with posts by other P-38 dweebs like OIO and myself about various maneuvers and tactics against some of the same planes you're having troubles with.  In that thread I also posted a film of a duel with a Spitfire Mk XIV against me in a P-38L.

P-38 thread

Try using the vertical as much as you can in the P-38, it's probably one, if not the best, vertical fighter in the game because if its excellent energy retention and its very gentle stall characteristics.  You can literally keep the P-38 standing on its tail in the vertical at speeds as low as 20mph.

It also helps to know about the planes you are facing too.  Get to know the various planes strengths and weaknesses and use that to your advantage.  For instance, with a Spitfire keep the fight above 300mph if possible because Spitfire is a better turner at 250mph and below while the P-38 has the advantage at 300mph+.  If you find yourself in a slow speed turn fight, try to force the stall fight (speeds below 150mph) because once again the P-38 has the slight advantage in stall fights do to it's better stall speed handling, gentle stall characteristics and no torque but at mid-speed ranges the Spitfire will chew you apart.

The same with the N1K2, fight them as you would a Spitfire.  With the slower speed of the N1K2 (as opposed to the Spitfire MK IX), it's easier to use vertical maneuvers against them, so that's the recommended tactic but if all else fails, stall fighting is another option against the N1K2 as they too have a slight disadvantage in a stall fight against a P-38.

You'll soon find out that the La7 is one of the easiest planes to fight against and is by far not the uber plane some whine it to be.  The only real advantage the La7 has over the P-38 is its speed below 16,000ft.  Above that altitude the P-38 pretty much holds most of the cards against it.  But you have to be aware that while the La7 might not be able to out turn a P-38, it does have a better initial turn rate for the first few turns which a lot of La7 drivers use to maneuver for the head on shot and it also has a better roll rate at high speeds but drops off at lower speeds.   The best tactic against them is to get them to turn fight, as the old saying goes, out turn the planes that can out run you...

But all this stuff is will do you no good if you don't know what the P-38 can do.  You have to know how to use the flaps and when to deploy them in any given situation.  Throttle control is another important factor, especially in maneuvers like rolling scissors where both flaps and throttle control are important for success.

As you've found out the P-38 is a fantastic plane to fly and fight in and if flown correctly one of the most dangerous foes you can run up against.  I'm sure OIO will stop by this thread and post some of his thoughts and I suggest you read his posts as well.  If you ever need any help in the P-38, just holler and one of us P-38 dweebs will come running.

One other thing, head on over to NetAces and read Rocketman's lectures on the merge and Bullethead's lectures on Energy management and tactics if you haven't done so already.  You'll be surprised on how their lectures will improve your flying and fighting.


Ack-Ack

[Urchin]

Hate to burst any bubbles... but the Spit 9 is completely and totally superior to the P-38.  More firepower, better turning, better acceleration, better climbing.  You *may* be able to out "stall-fight" a newbie in a Spit 9 if you are in a P-38, but a Spit 9 pilot that is half as good as you are will clean your clock.

I'm not certain about the N1K, but I'd wager the same holds true since they are essentially the same plane.  The N1K turns better than the Spit 9 at low speeds (where the N1K can get its flaps out), but the Spit 9 rolls better and climbs better.  Plus it has Hispanos.  Actually below 10k (I think, 8-10k anyway) the N1K is actually faster than the Spit 9 is, and climbs better as well (which I would assume to mean accelerates better, but I'm not sure).

[Soda]

I wouldn't get too worried about the Spit XIV because you are unlikely to meet many of them in the MA.  In the CT or in the TA you see a lot of them (sometimes) but in the MA you don't.  P-38 vs Spit XIV is not really all that fair anyway, the Spit does everything better.

Against a Spit IX, you have very little advantage in most areas though if you can keep your speed up you can do well.  Use the vertical as much as you can, the P-38 hangs very well, an take lots of snapshots with your .50's, they can hurt a Spit IX pretty quickly.

One other thing to keep in mind, the P-38 is much faster than a Spit IX near the ground.  The Spit IX can only do about 319mph with WEP (310 without) while the P-38 can do 344mph with WEP, 333 without.  That is a fairly siginificant speed difference so if you can keep fairly fast and not have Spit's diving on you with extra speed, then you can simply walk away from them.  Contrary to what Urchin said, the P-38 out-accelerates the Spit IX at every altitude, though the difference isn't likely enough to get you to safety (that info from tests in AH).

-Soda
Aces High Trainer Corps
The Assassins.

[Hammerhead]

Thanks for all the replies....keep em coming......need all the help I can get.

Another question tht I would like u P38 gurus to answer for me is about combat trim. I have read and have been that told that the P38's combat trim is useful in such a small area that u can fly with it off. My query is if i fly with in on does it cause any deterioration of performance?
I am not very fluent with manual trimming and by experiment I have found that when using manual trim I accelerate slower in a dive whereas with combat trim i end up compressing almost every 2 out of 3 dives.....  Generally diving from 15k to around 8 to 5k.

[Hammerhead]

Thanks for those lovely films ack ack........
I saw a few of em (4 now, will scrutinize others later).....
I saw the one where u shot the spit14, nice. The main tactic there was to go vertical and stay like that while rolling as the spit turned. Also noticed tht at the end, just before u nailed him, there was a sudden yaw to the left, guess u applied rudder, external views dont show tht though.......
How often is rudder input needed, generally speaking, cause I dont have any rudder pedals and I very rarely touch the rudder A,S and D keys....(usually only in turn fights).

[bozon]

as for combat trim, you can search this forum and find several threads on the subject.

my POV on this is that it's a suicide device in the p-38 (and 109). when you dive the CT keeps trimming forward and resists your attempt to pull up, causing your elevator to "lock".

I used CT for a rough trimming - turning it on for a sec, them turning off. this way i get close to trimmed and I never do it in a high speed dive in the 38/109.

Bozon

[Ack-Ack]

Combat trim is not useful in the P-38 because of the reason you mentioned and in my opinion it can keep you from pushing the envelope in the P-38.  Lephturn wrote up an excellent article about it here.  One of the good things about the P-38 is that you really don't have to mess with the trim at all, the only trim that you might have to adjust from time to time is the elevator trim.  Because there is no torque, aileron and rudder trim isn't needed.  If you need to trim your controls to neutral, just use the auto-level command to trim out your plane.


As for rudders, I've never flown the P-38 without using pedals and I use rudders to coordinate all my turns and use them to roll.  You'll find them really useful in rolling scissors maneuvers because at low speeds the P-38 needs all the help it can to roll.  Rudder pedals are highly recommended or at least a twisty stick joystick.


Ack-Ack

[Hammerhead]

Thanks ack ack, you have been a real help.......love those films.

Well as for rudders, looks like its shopping time......lol;)

[Murdr]

AKAK covered it pretty well, but just to add a general rule:
Hi E 38 vs Low E spit or nik=Excelent
(as described by akak)
Low E 38 vs Hi E spit or nik=ok
(pleanty of evasive options, and several ways to sucker them)
Equal E=Bad
If your 38 is co-E with a nik or spit you have 1-1/2 turns to do something after that use your superior acceleration.

[Jospe2]

I am not the skilled 38 driver that I know some of the people in here are,  put here are some of the manuvers I like to use.

These relate more to the CT then MA,  being I hardly fly the MA.

Dive Brakes,  I have used these with some success while diving on nme, they expect you to overshoot not lock on their six.

Also,  I love forcing an overshoot by split S'ing or just  drwing them into a dive and using the Dive Brake to force an overshoot.

Another manuver although I have not done it in AH is a double Immelman very few planes can follow a 38 in this manuver pending their E state of course.

I also think that a vest majority of drivers tend to keep their throttles floored,  I cant stress the importance of using the throttles to help bleed E and tighten turns.  

Expliot their speed and use it aginst them, let them black out while you manuver to their 6'0.    

Also, skewing the plane to bleed is effective aswell,  ie. using rudder and opposite airleron.  


Let the blood letting begin ........  


Jospe

[OIO]

Vs La7 the 38 sciscors or forces the La7 to enter a turning fight. Loops count as turning fights. La7 has excellent acceleration, 38 has great acceleration..but the 38 is a dragpotato, so during any turn/loop fights the 38 will win, especially if they get slow enough to use flaps on 38. La7's guns only deadly under d400, 38 can kill out to d1.1.

Vs Spitfires, the above posters are right, a spit5/9 outperform the 38 in turns, the 9 in climb, and all of them will dive with and catch a 38. However, the spits have one major achilles heel: They cant roll at high speeds (400+ mph), while the 38 becomes a Fw190 roller at said speeds. If a spit attacks you, dive to high speed, preferably a 90 degree dive. If the spit follows, you can just ROLL and turn and flat sciscor into the spit's 6.

Vs N1ks... Their fairy flight model allows their monster 2000HP engine to have perfect control below 100mph, it dives as good as a spit but without the massive loss of control, turns like a spit and has 4 bazookas that kill out to d1.2 with 1 ping. The only weaknesses a n1k has vs a 38 is their slower acceleration in LEVEL FLIGHT (aka, on the deck only) and their lower top speed (which is irrelevant since the P38 slows down to 320'ish after 10 seconds of leveling, while n1k will slow down to 300mph in like 20 seconds.. so if you dont have a lot of separation to start with, theres no way a 38 runs from a n1k). DO NOT go vertical with a n1k unless you have a MASSIVE E advantage (300mph more than the n1k ) and at least d1.8 of separation. The n1k will hang on its prop and spray you out of the sky. Hammerheads are not recomended vs n1ks either, that plane can helicopter nose up 90 degrees, then at 0 mph it will gently nose down (like a 38.. which is the peak of idiocy) and at a mere 50mph you can pull nose up and turn with full control. A 38 coming DOWN on it only has those 1 or 2 seconds to flip over, dive to gun range and shoot it down.. if it misses (which will happen if the n1k has turned) then the 38 has no choice but to dive past and away, which the n1k will then dive and follow and spray cannon for the 6 seconds it takes to get out of gun range.

vs spit14.. treat it like an La7 that has aversion to HO's

Jospe: P38 does not have dive brake. You're thinking another sim. P38 dive FLAPS do not reduce speed whatsoever.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Jospe2


Dive Brakes,  I have used these with some success while diving on nme, they expect you to overshoot not lock on their six.



Jospe

Hmmmm...the dive flaps in the P-38 don't do that.  You probably prevented the over shoot by chopping your throttle not by using the dive flaps.  They just don't provide enough drag to slow the P-38 down like that, especially since that wasn't their purpose.  The dive flaps changed the air flow over the wings to make pulling out of high speed dives easier.


Ack-Ack

[OIO]

btw ackack, the 38's E-retention is one of the poorest in the game. Its literally a brick with engines. Dive to 500mph then level, count how long it takes for it to slow down to its top speed at that altitude. Thats e-retention. The only reason why the 38 cant run away from most planes in the arena is because of that e-retention. Compare it to a P51 or spitfire, they retain their above-top-speed-for-altitude far longer than a 38.


38 has great zoom climb though