Pyro, inverted lift and drag?

[Kieren]

Nash-

It actually should be more of a snap roll in the forward direction- it should be violent (hence "Lomcevak-headache"). I wouldn't really consider this as a defensive maneuver at all. It's more of an air show trick.

[Cobra]

Daff has brought up a great point.

Plus, I don't think Daff is trying to bust balls here, I honestly believe he is asking this to help suggest improvements in AH's flight model.

Plus alot of the defensive moves we see now, just aren't really that desirable to do if the inverted lift and drag is modeled closer.  The cost to do them outweighs the benefit, especially down low.  Or up high you'd see alot more aircraft departing from controlled flight IMO.

Cobra

[Daff]

Nash, the thing is that you can "abuse" the current inverted lift/drag to gain angles.
You got a con on your 6, you roll inverted and start pushing up. The con starts pulling his nose up (he's still upright) and as he gets close to get guns on you, you pull back on the stick. There's no way he can follow that. He wont have enough elevator authority to push nose low (or will red out doing so) and if he rolls inverted, it will take time.
You, OTOH, have just gained a significant amount of angles, possibly an overshoot and it hasnt cost you the E it ought to have cost you.

Daff

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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

[Nash]

Hmm....

<evil grin>

That's an interesting tidbit of information Daff.

Very... tempting.  

<taps fingers on the desktop...ponders>

The lord's prayer sayeth:

"And lead us not into temptation"...

However... the very next line clearly states:

"But deliver us from evil"

Hhm....

 



[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 08-05-2000).]

[Daff]

You mean you havent seen anyone use that move???.

Daff

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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

[Nash]

Actually? No... But uhm... I 'spect I'll be seein' more of it now.

[Westy]

 I've tried to, to be honest. But before I could yank back on the stick to do the break downwards I was dead. But I never knew about the issue being talked about here. I always thought it would be easier to roll inverted, go upwards and then yank back.

-Westy

[Pyro]

One of the changes we're making a change to  will effect this, but I have one question for you.  Why do you believe a plane cannot climb well from an inverted position?  If you can express this mathematically, even better.  I ask because it sounds like you're looking for a huge difference, and I tend to doubt there will be one, although I haven't checked.

BTW, this is outside of stuff like oil starvation.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

[Daff]

I believe Bernoulli got a few things that hints in that direction.
Since the wing is shaped to give the fastest airflow (more lift) over the top of the wing, you need to increase the AoA to "shift" the leading edge when flying inverted (in order to get the faster airflow over the bottom on the wing), ie more drag, lower climbspeed, higher stallspeed.
A tad surprised by that response, to be honest.

Daff

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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

[Yeager]

I remember a piece in Clarence Emil  Andersons book where he described a shooting chase with a 109 and the 109 went inverted in a climb.  Anderson commented how odd that was to see as flying a plane like that "required a tremendous amount of effort".

The 109 subsequently went nose down and crashed without the pilot escaping.

FWIW, I dont find any advantage in inverted flight.  However, it is an act of engineering vs physics and should be in any FM if at all possible.

I once flew an entire sortie up-side down.
Its no fun.

Yeager

[AKNiteflyr]

I have a question Daff, what about angle of incidence remember that, with that in mind and possiblity the advent of laminar flow wings ya know the wings that are suppose to be the same on top as on bottom.  The point being that not any of the a/c in HT have the same angle of incidence and some are more or less laminar the others, which would explain why some aircraft with the assist with copious amounts of power can climb inverted and others can't that being in the real world which does not seem to apply in HT.  Please don't misunderstand me I love HT if not for the aircraft but for all the friends i have made playing which is the most important part of the game to me.  Any who the angle of incidence would also play a large part of the aoa with is the difference between the angle of incidence and the cord line of the wing...some basic flight school junk.., So in the end you are correct Daff these planes should not be doing what they are doing, and if we had to physically take the damands of the g forces both neg and poss you would see less and less of this stuff being performed,  (specially after and heavy night out on the town or some real greasy food... thats my 2 cents worth..

thanks for the ear...

[AKNiteflyr]

HI, again sorry about AOA, that is the difference between the cordline of the wing and relative wind... pls forgive my minor oversite.  and I amy not even touching dihedral..

[Kieren]

...throw in the thrust line, incidence of wing and stab, airfoil selection, dihedral... it is more complicated than "the airfoil is not symmetrical". The one thing we can agree on is these aircraft were optimized to fly right-side-up.  

[Pyro]

It's a given that more AOA will be required.  The point I'm after is why you feel this would lead to a lot more drag.  Keep in mind that this is not the same as comparing identical wings to each other at different AOA's.  



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

[Daff]

The increased drag will probably be directly related to the increased AoA.
Increased AoA = increased downwash = increased drag.
Add to that, that the underside of the wing, even with the displacement of the leading edge (by increasing the AoA) will most likely be less effective in the lift departemnt than upright, you again need to increased the AoA to get the same amount of lift out of it, again increasing the drag.
Parasite drag could also be increased, as the leading edge is now more blunt than in upright, although this would depend on the design of the airfoil.

How much the angle of incidence would affect it, I guess it's more relevant in the stall department. (Outer wing would stall first).
Dihedral will definitly affect stability, but I dont know if there's other effects  .
I'm no aeronautical engineer, just a PPL with a keen interest in aerobatics.

Daff



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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"