What went wrong?

[Nash]

Regarding the Axis vs Allies event in the SEA.

Preface: This is in no way meant to be offensive to the CMs and organizers who spent their free time coming up with what
was a well thought-out, well run event.

Here goes..

As of midnight EST, there are 100+ people in the MA, and 4 people in the SEA. The attendance in the SEA reached a peak of about 35 flyers, at about 1 hour after the event started, dropping to the number above about half way through.

I am completely suprised by that.

How long have we heard people ask for a two country Allied vs Axis setup? For ages. Here was, finally, the one night where we got the opportunity to live it. Yesterday, we got our kicks flyin' in the MA, business as usual. Tommorow, it's back to the MA.

But tonight? The one night where the CMs listened to us and threw open the doors to an Allied vs Axis set-up?.... WE DID NOT SHOW UP. Oh... we were flying alright... 100+ of us. But we chose the MA over the SEA.

So I wanna figure out why.

Was this event not advertised enough?

Was it advertised ineffectively?

What could be done PR-wise to get a better turnout?

Do we even *want* Allied vs Axis events?

Was this event not designed right?

If so, what would you change?

Are the Allied vs Axis supporters the vocal minority?

What percentage of the flyers even read this BBS, and is that the problem?

What can be done next time to garner more interest in this?

Lets figure this toejam out so we can come up with viable, successful events, tourneys, scenarios as an alternative to the MA...if that is indeed what we want.

Discuss  

[ra]

Nothing went wrong, this just wasn't really a scenario.  It was just a MA with historical plane matchups.  HTC says they're working on better CM tools, and the terrain editor is in beta.  When all that is complete we can have some decent scenarios.

B26, Tiffy, Spit9 V 190A5 and 109G6 sounds cool, but it turned into Spit9 v 190A5, we could do that in the MA.  With better CM tools pilots could be assigned to different planes and given real missions, not just furballing.

ra
 

[Bluefish]

Gotta concur with your puzzlement, Nash.  Was in there for about and hour or so, from 6 to 7 PDST, and, in addition to the low numbers, I was also wondering why no Allied buff missions were being flown- I thought that was what it was supposed to simulate.  Then I tried one by myself (low level back-door into an LW vehicle field- it took me a half hour there and back, which might have something to do with the absence of buffers).  

Had to log for a couple of hours and by the time I got back, absolutely no one was in there at all.

I sometimes wonder if the AH community (not necessarily the community that reads and posts here, but the overall flying community) isn't split into two distinct groups, a relatively small number of "grognards" who are attracted by the flight model, who dominate the BBS postings and who constantly call for more accuracy, strat, etc. and another larger group who are simply attracted by flat pricing (in an overall higher quality sim than the other flat price alternative), who could care less about scenarios or historical matchups and are perfectly willing to do the MA thing ad infinitum (while ignoring the strat elements that HT has already made available in the MA).

Anyway, many thanks to Vadr for CM'ing.  I liked the match-up, if not necessarily the distance between fields (terrain editor should take care of that, I guess).  Wish I knew what could be done to bump the numbers.  Maybe a more diverse plane set with a wider variety of historical match ups (Eastern Front, Pacific, Med, etc).  

[Downtown]

I guess I have to say advertising, I got to the MA last night (yestday was the first time in two weeks I could connect, don't think I discoed either.)

I asked what was going on in the SEA was told fish were there.

Had I know I could just walk on I would probably have joined in.

------------------

"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Citabria]

well I think it went well. it was a sort of event similar to the weekend warrior events in Warbirds but with the theme of a brit circus raid or what have you.


other events are more scripted with the mission planner but this one was just a fun historical matchup  


personnally i liked it a lot  

[-ammo-]

yup, was a blast to me.

I wonder myselfd why attendance wasnt any higher than that. sounds alot like the WB's HA I used to fly in.... they now  have the WW2 ARENA and it is dominating, where it is very similar to the HA except for the icons.

Well  i for one am still up for the axis vs allied thing. I appreciate vadr and all the cm's. i encourage them to keep up the good work on axis/ allied nights.


 

[StSanta]

Well, I have a few ideas. I was in for the first sortie and had great fun in it.

a) distance. The two sides were just too far away from each other.

b) altitude. After the first merge and fight, where the Spitfires were utterly destroyed (think cit and me got 9 between us), they decided to go on MIR space walks. Born were the Sputnickfires. Took off with citabria, climbed to 22k. Spitfires stayed at 27-30k until I was low on fuel. In the beginning, they were outnumbered, but soon there was 5 Spitfires to 3 190's.

Finally, after I was about as bored as I could be and still be playing, one came down. I decided to turn fight him, out of utter boredom.

Down comes Torque (and thanks for coming down, seriously, was getting very boring) and I decide that I could win a collision with the ground against the very same. I lost.

So I left and thought I'd wait til things had gone back to normal and people had stopped being overcautious. When I returned SEA was effectively dead.

The CM's did a great job - only complaint I can have was adding the G6 instead of the G2 or G10. G6 is the worst 109 IMHO with the worst qualities from the G10 combined with the worst of the G2, with no of the two's virtues. But that's a side issue.

So, with shorter distance between warring factios, the Sputnickfires will not have time to dock with MIR. With the G10 or G2, the valiant LW can force them to fight.

Other than that, first mission was a blast! Down the deck, LOTS of Spits everywhere, friendlies cleared me more times than I can think of (thanks EVERYONE who saved my butt <S!>. Lots of rolling scissors for me and d400 extension/reversions. Much more fun than in the MA.

<S!>


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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[Ghosth]

Well I think the long distance between fields added to the high alt problems. Everyone has to remember that we are pretty much learning this as we go. That what worked in another sim may or may not work here.

I personally believe that a larger planeset combined with closer fields would give us a lot more action.

[vadr]

Hmmmm....

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Please keep it coming because, as Ghost says, we are learning this as we go.

The only thing I can see that went "wrong" was a lack of advertising. I sometimes take for granted that most of the players read these boards. I will do a better job of advertising in the MA next time.

FWIW, these "historical" events should often be marked by higher altitude fights and longer flights. I was hoping that the Allies would use their B26's and Tiffies to launch low-alt (Historical) Ramrod missions against Bish targets, but when they didn't, it turned into an air superiority contest. <shrug>



------------------
Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen'
CM, S3 Team/Parser
    vadr@jg2.org    
Combat Flightsim Business Forum      

[Westy]

 Here is what I think could help a bit. Move the Special Events topic up much further near the top of the topic list so that it is seen every time someone enters the forumns. I'm 50/50 on this idea but have it so only folks involved with the special event can post the info. That way people do not become burned out or numb to the 'light bulb" being on for the Special Events forumn. Folks could ask in here or maybe via email to the CM any questions they may have. My reasoning? We all know there is something important in the NEWS topic when the light bulb is lit. Alas the same is not so when the Special Events light bulb is lit currently.
 I would also think that special events should get a very visible spot on the HTC front page.  That's more work for the HTC webmaster so not sure how far that would go.
 Post the announcements in other flight sim OFF TOPIC forumns, comp.sys.ibm.flight-sim and for good measure paste one up in alt.games.air-warrior <eg>
 
 As for yesterdays event? I think the ability to remove from the map (clipboard) any unused fields would be nice. The ability to rename a field from "A5" to "Manston" for instance is almost a must. The ability to restrict aircraft choices on the clipboard. I never tried another aircraft besides the 109G6 or 190A54 so not sure if I could have even flown a P-38 for instance - even though it was on the list of choices.
 Yesterday was more like a one day HA. We made our own objectives as there were none noted for the sides to aspire for. I enjoyed it just fine. But I would like to be a part of a mission verusus trying to invent one and see if I can get people to help out. When it is left to folks to come up with thier own plan of action more times than not folks will make a choice based on the popularity of the person with the idea. Not so much a choice based on the logic or feasability of a plan.

 Just my .02 (I have bags of .02 pieces   )

  -Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 08-06-2000).]

[Dnil]

I think historical terrain will help a bunch to, the fantasy terrain is wearing a bit thin.  This is still early in the process give it time and some decent terrain and it will grow.

------------------
Dnil
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer

[Tac]

I was in the SEA event for about 3 sorties, gave up after that.

Reason? spitfires make me sick  

Well, the event was great in the planning. To have "no man's land" in between is great as it gives more room for planes to plot attacks and stuff.

I propose for the next HA SEA to give all planes to each respective side (axis all LW and Japanese planes + buffs and goon and allies all US, Brit and Russian planes). A cool twist could be to have Theatre-specific planes face each other at the same time. Say, the northern half of the fields only allow players to choose European theatre planes while the Southern half of the map allows Pacific theatre planes only (aka, Japanese planes only vs p38s, p47's.. omit the p-51 since it came in too late to do any real dogfighting).

Cool scenario Vadr. <S>

[Frodo]

Well I had a blast.Until the arena numbers dropped to 10 total.
Was fun flying with and razzing torque and ammo.  

Frodo

[Wanker]

I dunno, StSanta, I was one of at least two Typhoons flying at the same time last night. Every FW I tried to engage HO'd me at the merge, so I gave up and jumped into my Spitfire.

Bluefish said:

I sometimes wonder if the AH community (not necessarily the community that reads and posts here, but the overall flying community) isn't split into two distinct groups, a relatively small number of "grognards" who are attracted by the flight model, who dominate the BBS postings and who constantly call for more accuracy, strat, etc. and another larger group who are simply attracted by flat pricing (in an overall higher quality sim than the other flat price alternative), who could care less about scenarios or historical matchups and are perfectly willing to do the MA thing ad infinitum (while ignoring the strat elements that HT has already made available in the MA).

I'm afraid you may be correct. What a shame.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

My post is in no way an whining in the way people flew or the event was organized, I salute both of them, but I think the low attendance was a deviance of behing 'historical'.

People are flying something who is supposed to be more realistic so they fly it realistic. They go 30K and take no risks because they try to fly as close from reality as it was, meaning not dying and still got kills.

I went up in an A5 full of fuel. Up to 20 I found spitfires at 30K. I tried to fly away to still grab and engage at least co-alt. I was never able to do so, always one of them coming my way and B&Z me. Diving on me, tatatata missing me, grabing back way hi, not even looping back for a second pass. Exactly like a P47 pilot in AW3  

When finally the strato Spits went home, I grabed to 30K to meet their 'next wave'. I loitered for 30 more min, nobody was around. i met a low spit (20K), but he dived away, I didn't want to blew all my altitude for 1 only and get vulched later.

I then encountered a typhy co-alt. After a missed HO, he dived away to home. Just when some spits finaly showed up for some dogfighting High, I was out of fuel (hehehehe).

After about this 1h flight I went back in MA.

I thing that sum it up pretty good. If both side fly (realistic mode not arcade mode) then we can expect some long borring times of mouse/cat. This is no critic on how people fly because this is the way they have to fly, but this was no fun (or too short moments of fun).

If we have a WW2 arena, it will be the same for a short while then it will be back to normal fighting like in the MA.

Ever noticed when a new TOD starts? Most focus on a good score start and we find a lot of altmonkeys runing as soon as in trouble. But after 1 week, situation goes back to normal, altitude lowers, people fight and are not affraid to die.

Anyone sharing those feelings?

------------------
Olivier "Frenchy" Raunier
     

SFRT Aces High web page http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm

SFRT pages http://www.sfrt.net

[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 08-06-2000).]