Slave factory workers

[davidpt40]

Watched a show on the history channel today about how Germany used political prisoners, overzealous christians, homosexuals, anti-socialists and russian POWs to construct V2 rocket launch facilities.  IIRC no Jewish workers were allowed in.

Anyways the workers were starved, overworked, and eventually worked to death.  Avg of 100 deaths a day occurred during construction of V2 rocket sites.  Often times the workers would be buried alive in concrete or killed by dynamite explosions since they were not allowed to exit the work site.  

Eventually the U.S. Army captured the site and discovered the horrors there.  

Aces High often times makes me forget how evil the Germans were.  And while the Russians may have fought the largest battles, it was the Americans who rescued/saved the most people.  I remember learning about one incident in my history class where the Russians actually stopped outside of a city where the Jewish population was fighting the Germans and waited for the Germans to kill the Jews before engaging in battle.

[blue1]

Oops, couple of corrections needed I think. No real argument about the use of slave labour on the V2. But in fact slave labour was used on virtually everthing in the third Reich. That included Jews.

it was the Americans who rescued/saved the most people.  

All credit the Americans did save a lot of people but there were other countries involved in the war. The Soviets did liberate one or two camps in the east.  The British and Canadians and French and Poles and Australians and South Africans and New Zealanders and Indians and a host of others  did take part in the war too. No small part either. Check your history. Recently the British, French and Canadians took part in the the Afghanistan opeartion too. Easy to forget that.

I remember learning about one incident in my history class where the Russians actually stopped outside of a city where the Jewish population was fighting the Germans and waited for the Germans to kill the Jews before engaging in battle.

I think you must be talking about the Warsaw uprising. Your history teacher must have failed history because while it was true the Russians deliberatly stopped outside Warsaw and waited for an uprising to be put down. It was during an uprising of the non Jewish Polish population. The 'Home Army'.  The Germans ironically treated many of the surrendering 'soldiers' of the Home Army as POW's.
The Jewish ghetto did rise up earlier in the war but it was suppressed long before the Russians were near Warsaw.  All the Jews were dead or in Aushwitz long before the Russians arrived.

Your sentiments are laudable and I don't mean to put you down but history has some surprising traps to fall into.

[GRUNHERZ]

If those huge battles werent taking place in the east and tying up the vast majority of German land and air forces how many people do you think the western allies could save?

[Fishu]

Someone is forgetting how evil russians were and who dropped the first abombs

[GRUNHERZ]

We dropped the abombs to save millions of american and japanese lives - and they did just that by ending the war and making an invasion of the Japanes main home islands unncessary.   Just to give you an idea of what you are asking for when crticizing the abomb useage. More Japanese civilans and soldiers some 175,000 died during the Okinawa invasion than did to both nuclear bombs combined. Over 200,000 Japanese were wounded. Total US KIA were around 15,000, with over 30,000 WIA.

So you are telling me it would have been more humane to see this repeated on a much much larger scale during an invasion of Japans home islands?

[Fishu]

That just reaches top of the hypocricy, Grunherz :>

[Animal]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
We dropped the abombs to save millions of american and japanese lives - and they did just that by ending the war and making an invasion of the Japanes main home islands unncessary.   Just to give you an idea of what you are asking for when crticizing the abomb useage. More Japanese civilans and soldiers some 175,000 died during the Okinawa invasion than did to both nuclear bombs combined. Over 200,000 Japanese were wounded. Total US KIA were around 15,000, with over 30,000 WIA.

So you are telling me it would have been more humane to see this repeated on a much much larger scale during an invasion of Japans home islands?

I understand this point, but why drop two of them?

One was certainly more than enough.

[GRUNHERZ]

Hey you are guy implicitly asking for a humnaitarion solution that would have killed far more people and far far more of them by proportion in far more greusome ways. But if you think that it would have been better that millions of Japanese civilans were shot in their guts by machine guns, or were burned by flamethrowers, or blown up by HE bombs, run over by tanks, stabbed with bayonets, threw themselves off of cliffs, were asphyxiated by fumes from fires, died of starvation, were executed by crazed Japanese soldiers, that childeren were ordered to charge tanks with bamboo sticks and satchel charges, that heads of households were issued a pair of hand granades one to kill an american soldier and the other to kill their families and so on then yiu have NO right to talk to me about hipocrisy.

On the other hand this attitude is entirely consistent with your ideas about the Iraq war, where you plainly considered it a better alternative for Saddam to stay in power indefinitely enslaving, impovershing, imprisonong, killing and torturing his own people by the tens of thousands each year than not to meantion threating the region  than for the USA to intervene now in short decive targeted war with minimal civilan casualties.

Yea I see your morals clearly there.....

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Animal
I understand this point, but why drop two of them?

One was certainly more than enough.

They werent willing to surrender after one. We had to show that we had plenty and would continue to use them as President Truman implied in the earlier that summer, a warning which Japan flatly rejected and ignored.

The whole WW2 thing sucked and was totaly unneccesary but dropping those bombs was a far better way to end it than to have an invasion of Japan.

[Fishu]

Now whos said I were *against* the Iraq war? :>

[ramzey]

good post Blue1
couple notes

Originally posted by davidpt40
Watched a show on the history channel today about how Germany used political prisoners, overzealous christians, homosexuals, anti-socialists and russian POWs to construct V2 rocket launch facilities.  IIRC no Jewish workers were allowed in.

u can name thet regular people, catched on the streets, homes beucose somone sell them to gestapo.

Originally posted by davidpt40
Anyways the workers were starved, overworked, and eventually worked to death.  Avg of 100 deaths a day occurred during construction of V2 rocket sites.  Often times the workers would be buried alive in concrete or killed by dynamite explosions since they were not allowed to exit the work site.  

not only working on V2, on submarine bunkers, many underground factories, tunnels, strongholds, ports, mines....
Died by starving, killed/burned/............. by SS

Originally posted by blue1
Oops, couple of corrections needed I think. No real argument about the use of slave labour on the V2. But in fact slave labour was used on virtually everthing in the third Reich. That included Jews.

Polish, french, netherlanders,russians, greeks ........ and any country conquered by germans. Including germans.

 

Originally posted by blue1
All credit the Americans did save a lot of people but there were other countries involved in the war. The Soviets did liberate one or two camps in the east.

Yeasterday i was in death camp museum, who is locate 2 km from my home. In poland was located most of dead camps i can count 5 big and many smaller. But thats not mean not many peoles was killed there and liberated there.

Originally posted by davidpt40
 I remember learning about one incident in my history class where the Russians actually stopped outside of a city where the Jewish population was fighting the Germans and waited for the Germans to kill the Jews before engaging in battle.

Originally posted by blue1
I think you must be talking about the Warsaw uprising. Your history teacher must have failed history because while it was true the Russians deliberatly stopped outside Warsaw and waited for an uprising to be put down. It was during an uprising of the non Jewish Polish population. The 'Home Army'.  The Germans ironically treated many of the surrendering 'soldiers' of the Home Army as POW's.
The Jewish ghetto did rise up earlier in the war but it was suppressed long before the Russians were near Warsaw.  All the Jews were dead or in Aushwitz long before the Russians arrived.

one note
Many POWs yes, but much more murdered couple days later, many murdered civilians, and all woman soldiers send to death camps, not POW camps, and killed.

ramzey

[NUKE]

The Soviets did liberate one or two camps in the east.

out of the frying pan and into the fire.

The British and Canadians and French and Poles and Australians and South Africans and New Zealanders and Indians and a host of others did take part in the war too. No small part either. Check your history. Recently the British, French and Canadians took part in the the Afghanistan opeartion too. Easy to forget that.

I love how you get all defensive and feel the need to "remind" us that other countries took part in the war. davidpt40 wasn't saying only America, Russia and Germany fought, he was only posting about what he saw on the historty channel...... moron.

Thanks for the history lesson. Until just now I didn't realise that other countries fought in WWII.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Fishu
Now whos said I were *against* the Iraq war? :>

Your opposition to the basic iraqi prohibited WMD possesion/development argument is pretty clear opposition to the basic lagal cause of the war.. You plainly made the argument that Iraq could laglly have WMD because the USA may have them.


But tell me how many million Japanese had to die in an invasion of the home islands for it to have been considered humanitarian enough altherntive for you? Or did you primarily want an invasion so that  several hundred thousand young americans would needlessly die also?

[Fishu]

I've only critisized the US - Iraq war for its hypocritical reasonings..
Saddam should been ridded already in 1991, thats my opinion... but I don't look with good at some hypocritical bullcrap either.
In fact I hate the hypocritical bull.

[GRUNHERZ]

So you fully supported the recent Iraq war then?