Author Topic: This one will be shot down..  (Read 569 times)

Offline WhiteHawk

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1815
This one will be shot down..
« on: June 09, 2003, 08:05:30 AM »
Had a blast last week intercepting about 5 bishop b17 forms,
got 2 kills and 3 sissts, and got the crap shot out of me, but I landed alive and safely with 1 wheel.
  The thing I noticed is, once the word got out that there were a bunch of bomber forms inbound, most seemed to take a priority in landing and launching to intercept.  (myself included).  This usually dont happen when the alarm is sounded for the 20 plane p51- p38- typhy- jabo thing.  Also seemd to gather a few escorts.
  I salute the bishops who organized this raid, its impact was small but I get a great delight in taking part in a traditioanl realistic WW2 role.  It is rare lately.
  My idea, and I'll admit, this one comes from my own selfish wishes, is to have AI bomber formations maybe 9-15 in size, depending on the strat strength of the country, and the available room in the arena, fly random bomb runs every so often against the nme.   These forms can be , gunned by real players, escorted by real players, or intercepted by real players. Or even joined by real player bomber forms.  I dont think it woukld have that much of an impact on the outcome of the game, but it will open some doors for us traditional (we suck at furballing) guys.  
I would love to escort a full b17 form deep into injun country in a p47 or p51, or intercept the same with a 190 or 109.
 I may be looking ahead to AH2 ToD, but I think this would be a cool thing in the MA.  Only problem I can see is the frame rate problem with the buff forms, and that may just be my puter.

Offline gofaster

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6622
This one will be shot down..
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2003, 08:13:20 AM »
I'd rather have a Ki-44 Shoki than AI bombers.  If AI bombers are going to be coming in, then we should have their traditional nemesis - the Ki-44!

Offline ccvi

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
      • http://www.carl-eike-hofmeister.de/
This one will be shot down..
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2003, 08:19:42 AM »
AI formations? I think I have seen that somewhere in another online game. Can't remember where, but it started with W i think... ;)

Offline JB73

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8780
This one will be shot down..
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2003, 09:51:55 AM »
you know i was just commenting about this to my squad wuring a "Squad Ops" in the SEA...

we got to discussing how IRL heavy fighters ALONE never attacked an air base. the ordinance was almost always carried by bombers and escorted by fighters. (now i a talking about mainly the european theater NOT the carrier based operations in the PAC theater)

anyway what we got to discussing is that even the SEA "squad ops" that are supposed to be more "historical" have been using the heavy fighter as the main attack force. it seems the design is turning into an organized Main arean :(

personally i love shooting down bombers, its why i fly ;) but it's so rare to see a real force coming in instead of the 20+ p38's and typh's you see.

IMHO the real problem is that these "jabo" planes carry enough ord to level a base (just 5-6 of them can do it alone). shouldn't the structures at the base be harder than that? what if it was raised to 5000 lbs to kill a hangar? or even 8000 lbs? that would MAKE the heavy bomber come into play. i mean as it is now a typh with JUST rockets can destroy a hangar. thats just not right IMHO.

oh well just my 2¢ on why something needs to change.
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline hazed-

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2467
      • http://combatarena.users.btopenworld.com
This one will be shot down..
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2003, 05:41:39 PM »
I dont know if i interpreted the info for AH2 correctly but I think this is what they are going to do. I think they are going to have an ongoing AI war that players attach to.AI bombers and AI defenders that players can choose to replace.

Perhaps ai planes will be marked 'drone' on their icon so it will be still possible to find human opponents easily(they would have normal icons)

If there are only one or two major AI attacks at any one time players would meet up in fights regularly.Probably more so than now on the big maps.at least milkrunning would become pretty much a thing of the past.

I might of course have totally the wrong idea :p

Offline oboe

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9805
This one will be shot down..
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2003, 06:21:56 PM »
WhiteHawk,

You should monitor the Combat Theater arena forum sometime when its an ETO setting.    You will find what you seek, in spades.

Someone will usually have their entire squad up in B17s, another squad will escort in 47s or 51s, and lots of others will scour the skies over France and Germany in 109 or 190-equipped wolfpacks, hunting down the fat cars and tangling with the escorts.   Its alot of fun, and you'll never see an errant LA-7 or N1K barging in for the kill...


Offline WhiteHawk

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1815
This one will be shot down..
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2003, 08:42:10 PM »
Yes..Iknow oboe.  Im gonna start playing more CT.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
This one will be shot down..
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2003, 10:06:53 PM »
This problem is also addressed in my suggested new perk agenda(Follow the link in the sig).

 In my view, the reason for sucidal runs and lack of buffs are all linked with the planeset.

 I am pretty sure not even the dweebiest of dweebs want to die on purpose. The real point which makes a 'suicidal dweeb' a 'dweeb', is his way of thinking concerning the risk he takes. A suicidal run, most likely, didn't start as one. It was probably a normal fighter/bomber strike as any other.

 What drives them into dropping to the field like flies in a puff of RAID? Why are those globs of conga lines of Typhoons or P-51s preferred over "mighty" bombers such as the B-17?

 Three main points are given as a reason:

1) Late war fighter bombers are vastly more efficient in MA than a formation of buffs - in accuracy and destructive qualities - thus, buffs, which main point lies in 'mass destruction', are actually likely to do less damage than fighter bombers. That is the reason why buffs are not used.

2) The reason for the fighter bombers being so more efficient, is that many of them carry overloaded ordnance in excess of 2000lbs. Three P-51Ds, P-47s, or Typhoons carry as much, or more ordnance than a single B-17. Their flight time to the target is shorter. They can immediately transfer to the vulch role after the bombing is done. Planes with uncommon, overloaded ordnance negate the very existence of bombers or dedicated JABO attack crafts.

3) Thus, when it comes to risk management, the typical 'suicidal' person is led to think that even if he dies, if he can just put 2k+ worth of ordnance to a target, the target will be considerably weakened. When four, five people - no matter how they are unskilled - commit themselves to about two suicidal runs, they will close a small airfield and deprive it of it's worthiness.

 ...

 So, it takes about 3k ordnance to kill a hangar. Late war planes carry 2k+ ordnance. What will a typical suicidal pilot think?

"I'm a newbie, and I'm not sure if I can do it right. But if I succeed, I can help my fellow countrymen to capture this territory. What do I do then?

 I know! Take out a buff on a deck alt run, or carry bombs in a fighter and put it on target - NO MATTER WHAT THE COST!

 There are risks - in the worst case I'll die. But as long as I put the bombs on target, it is worth it."


 ...

 Then the solution, obviously lies with the need to make people think suicidal runs are not worth it, and only a barrage of bombs from fighter bombers with organized efficiency will ever do them good. It gives them the motive to actually practice bombing and ground attacks, and do better in it.

 And at the same time, there is a need to give the specialized JABO planes and buffs their right of existence back.

 ..

 The solution I present, is lightly perking late war aircraft, and especially the planes that carry huge loads of ordnance. Under that situation, the most ordnance that unperked planes carry, is about 1000lbs total, or a single 500lb bomb with a few rockets.

 One or two suicidal runs are not going to be sufficient. With a 500lb bomb, they'll have to either kill themselves six times straight to down one fighter hangar, or bring 6 frineds just to kill one hangar, provided that not a single of them miss their drop.

 Will even the 'dweebs', be that willing to do so?

 6 consecutive near-suicidal flights takes about an hour in typical MA field distances. Will they fly an hour, just to go head-on and auger to a field six times?

 In those typical 10~20 man Typhoon/P-38 missions, half of them can miss their drop and auger, and still the rest 5~10 planes can kill all three FHs plus the VH.

 But what if the late-war planes are perked? Will it be so easy to bring about eighteen planes armed with a single 500lb bomb to kill three FHs in a small airfield? All 18 of them must put their bomb on target to do so!

 ....

 Impressive display of numbers, is never the same thing as 'squandering your power in vain'. Under my suggested perk agenda, just scooping hoardes of people and pushing them down to a one way trip, will not kill a field. Suicidal runs will accomplish nothing.

 Efficiency, will be achieved only when the planes that can carry enough bombs - such as the Fw190F-8, Mosquito, Bf110G-2, A-20s - are used. So if there's a twenty man mission, unlike as it is now, if it's gonna have any real effect, about 10 of them will have to be JABO aircraft, and the rest 10 will have to be escorts - since unlike those P-38Ls or Typhoons or P-51Ds, the dedicated JABO planes can't just dive and outrun, ignore every  interceptor and go straight to the field.

 Voila! JABO planes are given a role.

 ..

 What of buffs then?

 It is undeniable that buffs are always gonna be less in numbers. But however, under my agenda, late war planes are perked.

 Their ain't no free Bf109G-10s which soar to the stratosphere in mere minutes, with those harsh 30mm cannons. Their ain't no free super-fast three, four cannon planes. The best unperked climber is the Bf109G-2, the most powerfully armed unperked planes is the Fw190A-8.

 With the late war planes lightly perked, many planes don't just soar above 10k alt in minutes - they need time and preparation. Unless the buff run is absolutely anticipated, a Bf109G-2 won't be narby with gondolas.. when incoming buffs are reported, it's gonna take a helluva effort to up a Fw190A-8 to the proper alt.

 The survivability of the buffs, will be enhanced. And since you can't just take a free plane with no-risks, to go auger into a field to kill something quick, some people might consider more use of buffs, or buff oriented missions.

  ....


* Support the NPA(New Perk Agenda)! *

* Follw the sig link and join the vote! *  :) :)

Offline Ghosth

  • AH Training Corps (retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8497
      • http://332nd.org
This one will be shot down..
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2003, 11:48:18 PM »
I think part of the answer is to develop a tool that lets arena setup limit ordanance.

If tiffy's could only bring rockets, or 250s but bombers had 1000 lb ers available, you'd see some changes.

Would be especially useful for the new TOD, plus CT & Squad ops.

Come on HT, I know you can do it.

:)

Offline WhiteHawk

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1815
This one will be shot down..
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2003, 06:29:48 AM »
I agree Kweassa wholeheartedly.   I have suggested a much stronger fleet like auto defense for the bases.  Complet with 20mm manable positions, .50 cal nests, etc.  Something that is a real deterent to the jabo man, unless the base has been softened up a bit first.  Im not sure this is a real good answer, tho.