attrition & damage repair idea for Sunday Squad Ops

[ViFF]

Anybody remember the mega scenario we had with the USAF Academy two years ago which involved the Royal Navy vs the LW off the coast of Norway?

I liked the idea where if a squad did not rtb all its rides, it would be downgraded to an a/c of lesser capabilities, all based on how these were available at the time. There was a noticeable effort among all squads to rtb their rides, so they could continue using them in the next frame.

I would like to propose we use a system like this in the SSO, whereas a side would be given a certain number of different a/c, and an attrition formula would count how many are available on the next frame.

Say for example, in the current Squad Ops, the Allies have 12x Spitfire Mk.IX, & 12x Spitfire Mk.V allocated for all frames:

Losses/Re-equipment rules:

• in every following frame after the 1st frame, 2x new Spit Mk.IX are ferried in from the factory to cover losses.
• beyond the first two losses which are covered by the resupply from the factory, any further losses will be replaced by a Spitfire Mk.V that is readily available.
• in total, a squad may lose no more then 2 ships per frame before attrition sets in.
• A squad doing extremely well could accumulate Spit 9s if they do not lose any a/c during the first frame, thereby negating the negative effects of attrition, and assisting the overall battle effort.

What is considered a loss ?
Thats pretty simple, anybody who fails to land his a/c safely  - the logs reflect that perfectly. The CM could tally the log data available to him, and mark off his worksheet the number of aircraft available on each of the following frames.
Still, there is the matter of those who manage to land with damage during the frame, and are still available to fly (not counting pilot wounded damage- this would send a pilot straight to the hospital if he manages to rtb).

This is where I believe we can take it one step further, as I explain below:

The first engagement of every frame is allways within 10-20 minutes of the start time. many are shot down, but some pilots manage to limp back home in a damaged a/c and manage to land. I believe such valiant efforts should be rewarded. Since the CM & side CO know the amount of a/c they have available in their allocated pool, the player could recieve one of these and continue to participate in the frame.

All too many times we see lots of people call it a night within the first 30 minutes of the frame having landed with minor damage such as radiator/fuel/oil leaks or even a lost gear !
One time I flew in a scenario and had an 88mm flak burst hit one of my fuel tanks, I immediately headed back to base, and on my last drops of fuel managed to land safely,  but my a/c stopped with empty tanks just inches away from the rearm pad !
I had to say bye bye and went to bed an unhappy little boy
Don't you think this is absurd ???????
What kind of fun is this when you work so hard to land your damaged a/c only to cash in your chips and go to bed ?

The British mechanics were masters of quickly "patching up" their  Spits & Hurris in the respites between sorties during the dire days of the Battle of Britain to hold the line in battle withe the LW over London. Another example; towards the end of the war, the LW was in short supply of pilots, not planes !  there are many examples of LW Experten landing bullet riddled bomber interceptors, and immediately taking a new plane off the line available to them and rush back up in the air to take on the constant stream of bombers pummeling the fatherland by day and night.

What if the player had the ability for the player to request a fresh ride from the pool  of available a/c?
I haven't thought out all the details yet, but heres a rough idea I have in my head:

Pilot xxx lands his a/c at a friendly field which could be designated as a repair facility and as he waits on the runway for inspection, calls up the CM on private requesting a fresh ride.
CM goes to the airfield, and visually inspects the pilots a/c.
The CM can also ask the pilot to give him a list of systems damaged on his plane for referance.
Once the CM is convinced, and if the CO agrees to relinquish an airframe from the pool available, he opens flight for the country just for that specific player, and then closes it as soon as he's on the runway. The CM would note on his worksheet, depending on the severity of the damage, if the a/c would either be counted as a total loss, or be made available on the following frames, again depending how many systems were damaged, and how long the repair time is deemed.

I understand this calls for extra work on the part of the CM's and probably kills their fun in flying the events, but if I were a CM, I would definately do this to reward a pilot for his efforts in landing safely with a damaged a/c.

I believe the benefits are immense:
Squads will be motivated to fly & fight in a more careful manner.
More people would stay on during the length of the frame.

Remember: this is only relevant to those who manage to land their damaged crates at an airfield, not those who get shot down or ditch and/or bail.

Your thoughts people ?

[Flyboy]

bah viff
thats my idea



but lets take it to the next level:
each side starts the event with an amount of credit points that simulates the logistical suport of the country and each side will get more of those CPs after each frame.
at the start the COs need to place his squads in bases where the squad must stay for the entire event.
now each base has a limited slots lets say large base 6 medium base has 4 small base has 2 large bombers can only operate from large and medium bases

after the CO places the squads he now uses his Credit Points (CPs) to "purchase" aircraft those devieds to 3 groups 1st line AC 2nd line AC and 3rd line AC ( for example in the corrent SSO 1st line spit9, 2nd line mossie VI and 3rd line the hurri II)
ofcourse the higher quallity ACs cost more and the CO might want to save its CPs for later frames (soon you will know why)

ok both COs placed and equiped their squadrons tome for the first frame.
I will only talk about bombing.
if a field is bombed with more then X tons then it is consider dammaged and 1 squad slot has lost. meaning either the CO pays some CPs or the suqad must be moved to a different field which allso cost CPs.
if more then 2X tons has been droped on the field then he lost 2 slots. now lets say a side can only repair 1slot between frames, you just crippled your Foe capability in that fied and gained a big tactical advantge

allso you could focus your attacks on ports or depots and by that decrease the number of CPs that the other side will recive for the next frame.

now for the plane loss\ attrition.
i personaly belive that if a plane is dammaged and mannage to rtb safely and land he should get a new plane for 2 main reasons
1. is gameplay, since numbers are low in the SSO anyway preventing those players to go up again really hurts the gameplay, last frame our squad spent the second half of the frame doing allmost nothing.
2. historical, i dont belive that squads had the same number of planes and pilots exept maybe in some several battles (like the British in the BoB and the germans in the end of the war)

but a squad should be punished for a high loss factor
so after each frame a squad that  lossed over 50% of her planes should be downgraded a lower grade AC if she flew a 1st line then next frame she will fly a 2nd line
if a squad has over 50% losses and she flew a 3rd line plane than she fly a 3rd line plane in the next frame too
a CO can use CPs to upgrade a squad if he want.
allso if a squad has less then 50% losses for 2 frames in a row she is upgraded automaticly with no cost of CPs

well thats all i can think for now
i hope the CMs will adupt atleast something from what ive written it doesnt have to be the whole package but i feel like the SO event really lacks in the strategy aspect.

[ramzey]

it is not  reworked S3 idea?

[Flyboy]

thats exactly what it is
with a personal touch offcourse

[daddog]

LOL The whole Squad Operations were based on the S3's. I designed them I should know.

[ramzey]

yes Daddog, but TOD evolve to SOps  in many points.
Is diferent then S3

ramzey

[ViFF]

Yes, I believe Flyboy is taking this idea from the S3 he used to fly in WB. I never flew in the S3's cause they never held them in Euro hours, but I understood it was the best of WB, and still is to some extent.  I know of WB players who keep their accounts open just for that. The S3 rules took quite a few years of refinement to get to the complex levels they have today, and they have a large base of people who volunteer time to sit down and crunch the statistics during the, and after the frame.

For Aces High, I would suggest something that the CM's can stomach. They do a lot of work as it is, and I don't think they would agree to an idea that would double their workload.

In order for a strategy idea to work, It has to be simple from the CM's perspective,   and empowering from the player's perspective.

My angle is to allow players who landed safely with damage to ask for a new ride from the pool of aircraft which are available to the side. In this case the CM would have to open & close flight for every player who privately cues him.

In order for attrition to work properly, the CM would have to use a worksheet to followup on every frame how each side performed, and the CO would have the responsibility to allocate a/c for each squad.  We could have situations where one squad is assigned the 1st line a/c in the first frame, and wastes them all, only to leave the next squad on the following frame assigned 2nd line a/c because of the previous squad's poor performance.

But on the other hand, the ultimate responsibility rests on the CO, if he sees a squad getting mauled he can order them to retreat instead of fight to the death and waste all the fron line a/c.

Take for example the last two frames where both our squads (101 Sqn & 308 Sqn) engaged each other: In the first frame 308 Sqn were in 109s and engaged the 101 Sqn in Bostons,  you saw us dumping our bombs and fighting for our lives...  most bomber squads I know will just sit there and wait to get shot down.

On the second frame, 101 Sqn was in Spitfires, and we engaged your 308 Sqn in the 109s.  We shot down 4 of your 7 109s,  I noticed you made a tactical decision seeing 3 109s against 8 Spitfires, called a retreat towards the port on the West end of Sicily.

This is a real life decision that I see few squads making, instead we just normally see people fight to the death with no regard to saving their airframe.

[ramzey]

Originally posted by ViFF

On the second frame, 101 Sqn was in Spitfires, and we engaged your 308 Sqn in the 109s.  We shot down 4 of your 7 109s,  I noticed you made a tactical decision seeing 3 109s against 8 Spitfires, called a retreat towards the port on the West end of Sicily.

This is a real life decision that I see few squads making, instead we just normally see people fight to the death with no regard to saving their airframe.

oh, that you not defend bombers and wait at 30k till  we finish them all;)

anyway S3 is well designed and leaded events i know, i can say we can learn a lot from them

ramzey

[ViFF]

LOL  we were Sancho's "little squeakes" during this frame

He had us running all over Sicily plugging holes....

He even ordered us to strafe acks at the West port and D22  

great flying with those 109s against us btw...  you lasted 1 minute longer then I thought you would

Maybe we should do a squad duel one day

[daddog]

anyway S3 is well designed and leaded events i know, i can say we can learn a lot from them

The S3's are excellent events.  When we were working on the TOD's (now Squad Operations) much of the design was based on the S3's.  Vadr and many others were a huge help when I had questions.

Why the plug for the S3's here in Aces High ramzey?

Viff has a fine idea here that the CM's can consider. Anything that would improve Squad Ops I am for!

[ghostdancer]

Actually the idea of only have a limited number of high performance aircraft has been used in Squad Ops. Daddog had a recent one with 262s and some other aircraft where you only had a fixed number for the whole frame. If you losted them they were gone.

The LW only had 12 but did not lose any in frame 1 or 2 so in the last frame upped all 12.

Also over in AW in the BigWeek Scenario you also had the same concept of you only getting a set number of certain planes and replacements for the scenario.

Remember one squad in P51s getting decimated; the survivors kept their 51s but the dead people got older P47s since they had no replacements.

Its a good idea and will make sure the admin CMs are aware of it so that they can incorporate it into their designs or not as they see fit. Obviously if all you have is Spit Is and Hurri Is during a design you can't actually assign them Gladiators if they lose their rides.

Keep it coming .. all the admin CMs are allowed to incorporate / implement whatever rules they wish for their Squad Op.

[Flyboy]

well since im pretty new in AH i dont know yet what are the limitations of the game\ CMS
a respond of a CM will be nice tho

i hope atleast some of the ideas will be aplied on the next SO event

[ghostdancer]

Flyboy,

I am a CM and actually I am in charge of all the Admin and Setup CMs of both Friday and Sunday Squad Ops.

Will see what I can do about having some of the ideas worked into the next one. Not all probably just because next one is almost upon us. Probably phased in ideas over the next two after I discuss it with the admin CMs.

[ghostdancer]

Okay after reading your comments I think I understand what you are driving at. Which is there to be more accomplishment and more impact for losing your plane or not.

Now however, we have to keep in mind the following things:

[list=1]

• That each frame has a different CiC. We don't want to put something in place that either ties his/her hands too tightly that they can't do what they want but are forced to follow one path to accomplish their goals. And two a system that would only work if we had the same CiC for the whole event.
• We don't want to lock a squad to a specific field or base of operations. First once again this takes the control out of the individual CiC's hands and next if you have a flexible front campaign a field can be over run. And then again in the real war squads were re-assigned to new fields and even theatres.
• We want a system that does single out and impacts positively or negatively one squad over another in such a way that you will have squads at odds with each other.

By this I mean that we all know that their squads that are better at bombing, JABO, and fighters than others. Say squad X ups and does a great job and loses very few P51Ds. Squad Y then ups and loses most of its P51Ds. We don't want a system which encourages that specific squads get the best rides because they perfrom better or that where the CiC allocates his precious resources to one squad over another .. constantly assigning one squad the best planes and the other the 3rd line planes.

Its a balancing act where we want everyone to have a chance at commanding, making their own decisions, and not getting a chance at good planes.
[/list]

With this in mind what do you think of this possible system:

• We created and designate three type of aircraft. 3rd line, 2nd line and 1st line. Each costs a certain amount of points (Credit Points, Production Points, Aircraft Points or whatever we want to call them)

0 = 3rd line
1 = 2nd line
2 = 1st line

• Each squad starts the scenario with a beginning amount of Aircraft Points. Basically take the squads committment level max (7-10 so max is 10) divide by 3 and then multiple by 2.

So (10 / 3 ) x 2 = 7 points in this example.

Do this for each squad and that is the starting point your get. Now the CiC looks at each squad and assigns them a mission (JABO, figher, bomber) as he sees fit. When assigning aircraft he then can then has to make the decision of whether to use the points to field a few 1st line planes, or a majority of 2nd line planes with a few third line planes.

• If the pilots land their planes. The points are not lost but kept for the next frame. If they ditch we could say they only lose half the value of the plane since it was ditched on friendly terriroty and lets say that it could be hauled back to a base and patched up. So they get some of the value spend on it back. A capture, death, bail, etc. lose the points. Have to consider how to handle a disconnent.

This way each squad has points that are independent of other squads or a specific base. If they do well they keep the points to be used in the next frame to buy better aircraft but they are not locked into flying just one type of aircraft (i.e. since they flew P51Ds they are locked into flying P51s whole frame. But instead can be assigned a JABO role and by the best JABO or the best Buff available).

• Next we setup a resupply system. Basically each frame each squad gets new points to simulate new resources / aircraft supplied to them to make up for their losses.

You can simply go with the same formula and say each squad gets (max / 3) * 2. Or it can be adjusted to reflect economic situation per scenario by the admin. But lets stick with that formula for right now.

• Now we want to actually have bomber attacks and jabo attacks have some impact on things too besides just moving fronts. In the real war JABO and bomber attacks were aimed at destroying the opposing force available tools of war and production.

So lets use something simple that we can implement in 3 frames and not have a massive administrative overhead.

The Admin CM assign targets to be hit. Depending on the level of destruction achieve the next frame aircraft points are adjusted.

• If no damage achieved on the facilities your are to defend then each squad on your side gets 100% of the new Aircraft Points for next frame. Meaning you get the ones that you did not lose in the current frame and the new ones next frame.
• If light damage happens to your facilities (the average damage across all your facilities) then the points for all squads is dropped by 25%
• If moderate damage happens to your facilities then the points

reduced by 50%.

• If heavy damage happens to your facilities then the points reduced by 75%.
• If extreme damage happens to your facilities then no new points for next frame.

So you start with a fixed number of points per squad that stays with that squad. So you reward their performance and staying alive without taking away from another squad and starting arguments over who should get the resources.

Next you have in affect you have the overall performance of your attacks on ground targets affecting the opponents resupply. Bomber and JABO attacks do more than just determine the frame but actually affect the next frame.

You could basically start a very interesting affect. You keep your planes alive and plaster the enemy targets than possibly by frame 3 your side has enough points to fly all 1st line planes while the enemy can only muster 3rd line planes and a few 2nd line planes.

Relative simple system that we can try that could achieve the desired affect while still allowing the admin and CiC to be flexible with the squad ops and not alot of new additional overhead.

[Flyboy]

Originally posted by ghostdancer
Okay after reading your comments I think I understand what you are driving at. Which is there to be more accomplishment and more impact for losing your plane or not.

Now however, we have to keep in mind the following things:


1. That each frame has a different CiC. We don't want to put something in place that either ties his/her hands too tightly that they can't do what they want but are forced to follow one path to accomplish their goals. And two a system that would only work if we had the same CiC for the whole event.

amm im not sure what is CiC (i assume Comand in Control?) but i dont see any problam in that we have different COs for each frame, and inspite of the more complex "strat" system it will not tie the CO hands (though it might glue is arm pits if he wont watch is assets )

2. We don't want to lock a squad to a specific field or base of operations. First once again this takes the control out of the individual CiC's hands and next if you have a flexible front campaign a field can be over run. And then again in the real war squads were re-assigned to new fields and even theatres.

Squads are not locked to a specific field, but if the CO will want to move them it will cost him
and yes squads where moved to different theatres but not in a middle of a campaign (or a scnario in our case )[/B]

We want a system that does single out and impacts positively or negatively one squad over another in such a way that you will have squads at odds with each other.

By this I mean that we all know that their squads that are better at bombing, JABO, and fighters than others. Say squad X ups and does a great job and loses very few P51Ds. Squad Y then ups and loses most of its P51Ds. We don't want a system which encourages that specific squads get the best rides because they perfrom better or that where the CiC allocates his precious resources to one squad over another .. constantly assigning one squad the best planes and the other the 3rd line planes.

Its a balancing act where we want everyone to have a chance at commanding, making their own decisions, and not getting a chance at good planes.

you are right at that point, this is a problem and i didnt thought about it.
i had a few other idea's but after reading your suggestion i think thats a good idea.  

With this in mind what do you think of this possible system:


1. We created and designate three type of aircraft. 3rd line, 2nd line and 1st line. Each costs a certain amount of points (Credit Points, Production Points, Aircraft Points or whatever we want to call them)

0 = 3rd line
1 = 2nd line
2 = 1st line

2. Each squad starts the scenario with a beginning amount of Aircraft Points. Basically take the squads committment level max (7-10 so max is 10) divide by 3 and then multiple by 2.

So (10 / 3 ) x 2 = 7 points in this example.

Do this for each squad and that is the starting point your get. Now the CiC looks at each squad and assigns them a mission (JABO, figher, bomber) as he sees fit. When assigning aircraft he then can then has to make the decision of whether to use the points to field a few 1st line planes, or a majority of 2nd line planes with a few third line planes.

3. If the pilots land their planes. The points are not lost but kept for the next frame. If they ditch we could say they only lose half the value of the plane since it was ditched on friendly terriroty and lets say that it could be hauled back to a base and patched up. So they get some of the value spend on it back. A capture, death, bail, etc. lose the points. Have to consider how to handle a disconnent.

This way each squad has points that are independent of other squads or a specific base. If they do well they keep the points to be used in the next frame to buy better aircraft but they are not locked into flying just one type of aircraft (i.e. since they flew P51Ds they are locked into flying P51s whole frame. But instead can be assigned a JABO role and by the best JABO or the best Buff available).

[/B]
i dont think the CiC should decide what plane the squad will fly and should let the squad CO choose it. the CiC gives the squad their mission (jabo fighter bomber) and the squad CO chooses the plane for the job
allso spliting a squad to differnt types of planes it ruins the immersion and can allso ruin the fun factor.
so heres a simple idea that i developed from your concepts.
lets say when a new event starts all the squads recive 10points regardless of their size. now a 1st line AC will cost 10points a 2nd line will cost 5points and a 3rd line will cost none.
the loss of points will be calculated in the following way:

R=S*(L\P)

R=reduction number (how many points the squad will loose
S=amount of supply points the squad used in the frame (10, 5 or none)
L=lost planes number (how many planes did the squad lost in the frame)
P=number of planes (how many squad planes took of)
in that way it doesnt matter what size the squad is

for an example:
a squad named the XXXhot sauce took off in 8 spit9s ( a first line fighter in that case)
the squad lost 6 planes in the frame so:
R=10*(6\8)
so R= 7.5
the squad lost 7.5 meaning that now she only have 2.5 points left
lets say all the squads got 4 points from resuply between the frames that leaves the squad with only 6.5 points for the next frame. maybe the squad will like to fly a buff now (which is a 3rd line plane in that case)
this allso helps to encourage squad to fly bomber missions
 
the problem is, there should be an open dialog between the squad COs and the CiCs so the CiC could tell the COs what tpye of missions will be available and the squad COs can post their mission type requests.
that creates a problem since the only way to do it is by email.
i think the best thing will be a password protected forum for each side but ive been told that it isnt doable, maybe 2 Email groups which are monitored by the CMs and will include each side COs and maybe another player from each squad if the COs has trouble

4. Next we setup a resupply system. Basically each frame each squad gets new points to simulate new resources / aircraft supplied to them to make up for their losses.

You can simply go with the same formula and say each squad gets (max / 3) * 2. Or it can be adjusted to reflect economic situation per scenario by the admin. But lets stick with that formula for right now.

5. Now we want to actually have bomber attacks and jabo attacks have some impact on things too besides just moving fronts. In the real war JABO and bomber attacks were aimed at destroying the opposing force available tools of war and production.

So lets use something simple that we can implement in 3 frames and not have a massive administrative overhead.

The Admin CM assign targets to be hit. Depending on the level of destruction achieve the next frame aircraft points are adjusted.

• If no damage achieved on the facilities your are to defend then each squad on your side gets 100% of the new Aircraft Points for next frame. Meaning you get the ones that you did not lose in the current frame and the new ones next frame.
• If light damage happens to your facilities (the average damage across all your facilities) then the points for all squads is dropped by 25%
• If moderate damage happens to your facilities then the points

reduced by 50%.

• If heavy damage happens to your facilities then the points reduced by 75%.
• If extreme damage happens to your facilities then no new points for next frame.

So you start with a fixed number of points per squad that stays with that squad. So you reward their performance and staying alive without taking away from another squad and starting arguments over who should get the resources.

Next you have in affect you have the overall performance of your attacks on ground targets affecting the opponents resupply. Bomber and JABO attacks do more than just determine the frame but actually affect the next frame.

You could basically start a very interesting affect. You keep your planes alive and plaster the enemy targets than possibly by frame 3 your side has enough points to fly all 1st line planes while the enemy can only muster 3rd line planes and a few 2nd line planes.

Relative simple system that we can try that could achieve the desired affect while still allowing the admin and CiC to be flexible with the squad ops and not alot of new additional overhead. [/B]

i like your idea.
at each scenario start the CMs will decide how many points each side gets after each frame (it doesnt have to be equal for both sides)
and each side has its assigned targets by the CM that if he hits them he cripples the enemy suply of points
lets say:
0%-24% destruction- no penelty on suply of points
25%-49% destruction- a 25% penelty on the supply points
50%-74% destruction- a 50% penelty on the supply points
75%-99% destruction- a 75% penelty on the supply points
100% destruction- No points for you! MUhahahah

as i said before i dont expect to see it all implemented in the SOs allthough i hope i will

i just want to improve and to add a bit of depth to the series