No WMD, was war worth it?

[Naso]

Originally posted by Nifty
doesn't the end justify the means, Curval?  According to Rip and Eagler it sure does.   It doesn't matter than the "intelligence" the Bush Administration was wrong (for whatever reason) it just matters that a despot is out of power and a people freed...  until they "elect" a theocracy and that sect of Islam persecutes the other sects.  Let's hope that's not the case though.

Point is, I agree with Curval.  War was definitely worth it in terms of liberation of Iraq, but the pretense for the war (Iraq has WMD and is a clear and present danger to the USA) seems fabricated by the Bush administration at the moment.

The "theocracy risk" seem real present today, the Shi'it are mounting a huge "people education system" to have the shaaria as the new constitution of Iraq.

2 Christian Iraqis have already be killed "for selling alchoolic beverage".

Let's hope for the better, anyway, it's their country and they are free to choose wathever they want, now.

[Creamo]

Rant-

There is no question at least for me whether there is a huge pile of Anthrax loaded missiles in Iraq to give Bush a “See?! I told you so!” The Democrats obviously have mastered the obvious on this as well, and know damn well they can smear and sling mud at will with out a ‘smoking-gun’. I just can’t see Iraq being so inept at letting such crimes like that be discovered.

Look, if you can develop something advanced as biological weapons, (they did), and missiles, (they did), it would take 1/1000th of the effort to make them disappear in very short order. How can you disagree?

There is also no question whether it was worth it to finally liberate a country controlled by that dip**** with Barry Manilow records in his 100 palaces, while his own people he gassed, imprisoned, starved, and murdered. Had they been in a isolated South Pacific Island, it may not have been so urgent, yet the outcome for the Iraq people will be the same at least. Im not calling this a 'heart felt liberation' by any means.

 Sure it’s the vital oil reserves and even more important geographical/political location was the real reason for crushing that wannabe Hitler, but it will save tons of US military resources in the end, and certainly take backing away from unknown huge amounts of terrorists. Hello?

And that’s why I care, not because Hussein was killing the fools that empowered him, but cause unlike the Homeland Overreaction Act, THIS will in fact be a blow to terrorism. And I just loathe those fukers that cut down the towers, killing innocent children, and crippling our economy. The quicker we eradicate those extremist bastards, or destroy their means to wage this insane ‘Holy War’ on innocents, because they live a good life, the better.

And unlike the bleeding heart liberals that want to promote their political agenda by bashing Bush, I don’t think we need a “WMD” excuse.

Just saying.

[Mini D]

Wow creamo... a tard with the first decent post in this thread.  WTG you homo.

MiniD

[Ripsnort]

First piece of common sense I've seen from Cream-o-tard.  It comes across like a bull in a china shop for effect, but the message is still the same.

[Yeager]

Cream nailed it.  Im thinking like that from now on.

[Bodhi]

For the first time ever, I can actually say, "Well said Creamo, I agree with you totally on that!"

[Curval]

pfffft

I don't like being lied to.  

I would have supported the war just to get rid of Sadaam...I still support it and the troops for all the reasons Creamo mentions.

But I don't like being lied to.

I still cling to the hope that either the weapons are found or at a minimum evidence supporting the total destruction of them just prior to the war.

[Arfann]

Originally posted by Creamo
Rant-
And that’s why I care, not because Hussein was killing the fools that empowered him, but cause unlike the Homeland Overreaction Act, THIS will in fact be a blow to terrorism. And I just loathe those fukers that cut down the towers, killing innocent children, and crippling our economy. The quicker we eradicate those extremist bastards, or destroy their means to wage this insane ‘Holy War’ on innocents, because they live a good life, the better.
 

A blow to terrorism? Killing off Arabs not associated with the ones who actually did the WTC? This little war thingy is reinforcing the hatred of all Islam against us. A common enemy to unite against under the fundamentalists. A lot like what's happening here, huh? All of Islam a demonized enemy for us to unite against under fundamentalists. It's extremely discouraging to see how many (the large majority, evidently) who can't see this for what it is.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Arfann
....see this for what it is.

yeah, I do ...

the first step in the right direction

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Arfann
A blow to terrorism? Killing off Arabs not associated with the ones who actually did the WTC? This little war thingy is reinforcing the hatred of all Islam against us. A common enemy to unite against under the fundamentalists. A lot like what's happening here, huh? All of Islam a demonized enemy for us to unite against under fundamentalists. It's extremely discouraging to see how many (the large majority, evidently) who can't see this for what it is.

"Bankrolled" (see bold paragraph below) is supporting terrorism. If the moneys not there, then its "a blow" so to speak

On March 27, 2002, the State Department's list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs) was updated to include 33 groups. This partial list focuses on groups recently engaged in terrorist attacks.

State-Sponsored Terrorism
The U.S. State Department has designated the following countries state sponsors of international terrorism: Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria. Though most no longer engage directly in terrorist activity themselves, they may support terrorist groups by providing funding or arms.

Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG) The smallest and most radical of the Islamic separatist groups operating in the southern Philippines. Some ASG members developed ties to the mujahideen while fighting in Afghanistan but the group is largely profit-driven. Activities: Kidnappings, extortion, murder—in 2001–2002 the group held an American missionary couple and other hostages, several of whom were killed in a shoot-out with Philippine troops.

Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya (Islamic Group, IG) Egypt's largest militant group, IG's primary goal is to replace Egyptian government with an Islamic state. Activities: Armed attacks against Egyptian government officials and Coptic Christians. Launched the 1997 attack at Luxor that killed 58 foreign tourists. Attempted to assassinate Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak in 1995.

Al-Jihad/Islamic Egyptian Jihad Active since the late 1970s, al-Jihad was established to overthrow the Egyptian government and create an Islamic state. Vehemently anti-U.S. and anti-Israel. Activities: Armed attacks and car bombings aimed at U.S. and Egyptian facilities. Carried out the 1981 assassination of President Anwar Sadat. Merged with al-Qaeda in June 2001; its leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri, is Osama bin Laden's closest adviser.

Al-Qaeda Established in the late 1980s by Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda's current stated goals are to drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia; destroy Israel; and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East. Al-Qaeda also aims to unite all Muslims and establish, by force, a global Islamic caliphate. Activities: Include the Aug. 1998 bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa, the Oct. 2000 suicide attack on the U.S.S. Cole, the Sept. 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

Armed Islamic Group (GIA)/Salafi Group for Call and Combat (GSPC) Extremist group that aims to replace the secular Algerian regime with an Islamic state. Activities: Between 1992 and 1998 the group massacred an estimated 100,000 civilians; violence resumed again in 2001.

Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA) Spanish separatist group created in 1959 with the aim of establishing an independent Basque homeland. Activities: Bombings and assassinations of Spanish government officials.

Hamas Formed in late 1987 to establish an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel. Some elements work through mosques and social service institutions. Militant elements advocate and use violence. Activities: Many attacks, including suicide bombings, against Israeli civilian and military targets; major force in both intifadas.

Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM) Islamic militant group based in Pakistan that operates primarily in Kashmir. The group has been linked to Osama bin Laden and in 1998 called for attacks on the U.S. and Western interests. Activities: Attacks against Indian troops, Western tourists, and civilian targets in Kashmir. Hijacked Indian airliner in Dec. 1999 to bargain for release of a number of Indian-held prisoners, including Ahmad Omar Sheikh, who in July 2002 was sentenced to death for the abduction and murder of U.S. journalist Daniel Pearl.

Hezbollah Extremist Shi'ite group that aims for the creation of Iranian-style Islamic republic in Lebanon. Formed in 1982 after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, the group is strongly anti-West and anti-Israel. Activities: Anti-Israeli and anti-U.S. attacks, including the suicide truck bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks and embassy in Beirut in 1983.

Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM) Islamic extremist group formed in early 2000 by Masood Azhar, whose release from prison was a condition for the freeing of hostages from an Indian airliner hijacked in Dec. 1999. JEM's overriding objective is Pakistani control of Kashmir. Activities: Claimed responsibility for the Oct. 2001 suicide attack on the Kashmir legislative assembly building; implicated, along with Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, in the Dec. 2001 attack on the Indian parliament.

Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) Established in 1974 as a Marxist-Leninist insurgent group primarily composed of Turkish Kurds. Seeks an independent Kurdish state in southeast Turkey. Activities: Attacks on Turkish diplomatic and commercial facilities in dozens of West European cities in 1993 and 1995. Attacks on tourists and tourist sites.

Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT) One of the largest militant groups seeking Pakistani control of Kashmir. Activities: Responsible for numerous attacks on Indian military and civilian targets in Kashmir since 1993. Implicated in the Dec. 2001 attack on the Indian Parliament.

The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) The most powerful Tamil group in Sri Lanka. Seeks to create an independent Tamil state. Began its armed conflict with the Sri Lankan government in 1983. Activities: Political assassinations of Sri Lankan president Ranasinghe Remadasa in 1993 and Indian prime minister Rajiv Gandhi in 1991. Massive truck bombings. NOTE: In Feb. 2002, the Sri Lankan government and the Tamil Tigers declared a cease-fire that thus far has held.

Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK/MKO) An Iranian Marxist-Islamic organization founded in the 1960s. MEK, both anti-Western and against Iran's clerical regime, is bankrolled by Saddam Hussein of Iraq. Activities: Murdered dozens of top-level Iranian officials since 1981. Aided Iraqi government in suppression of anti-Hussein Shia and Kurdish uprisings in 1991.

The Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) Loosely affiliated factions committed to the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel through holy war. Activities: Suicide bombing attacks against Israeli targets.

Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Marxist-Leninist group founded in 1967 by a former PLO member. Activities: International terrorist attacks in the 1970s; since then, attacks against Israelis and moderate Arabs; assassination of right-wing Israeli cabinet minister Rehavam Ze'evi in Oct. 2001.

Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA) Launched early in 1998 in protest of Sinn Fein's Sept.1997 adoption of the principles of democracy and non-violence in the pursuit of an all-Irish state; opposed to the Dec. 1999 amendments to the Irish Constitution that retract the Republic's claim to the six northern counties. Composed primarily of members of the 32 County Sovereignty Movement and defectors from the IRA. Activities: Bombings, assassinations, and robberies targeting British military and police as well as Protestants in Northern Ireland. Considered responsible for the Aug.1998 car bombing in Omagh, Northern Ireland, and attacks on the British mainland, such as the 2001 bombing of MI6 headquarters in London.

Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) Best-trained and best-equipped guerrilla organization in Colombia. Established in 1964 as military wing of Colombian Communist Party, seeks to overthrow the government. Anti-U.S. since its inception. Activities: Armed attacks against Colombian political and military targets. Traffics in drugs.

Revolutionary People's Struggle (ELA) Extreme leftist group that developed out of the opposition to the military junta that ruled Greece from 1967 to 1974. Self-described revolutionary, anticapitalist, and anti-imperialist group that is strongly anti-U.S. and seeks the removal of U.S. military forces from Greece. Activities: Bombings against Greek government and economic targets as well as U.S. military and business facilities. Claimed joint responsibility (with terrorist group 1 May) for more than 20 bombings in 1991.

Sendero Luminoso (Shining Path, or SL) Formed by Maoist professor Abimael Guzman in the late 1960s. Seeks to replace Peruvian institutions with a communist peasant revolutionary regime. Activities: One the most ruthless terrorist groups in the West, SL has killed about 30,000 people since 1980. Although the Shining Path waned during the 1990s it has begun a regroup since 2000.

[Syzygyone]

Originally posted by Creamo
Rant-

. . .

There is also no question whether it was worth it to finally liberate a country controlled by that dip**** with Barry Manilow records in his 100 palaces, while his own people he gassed, imprisoned, starved, and murdered. Had they been in a isolated South Pacific Island, it may not have been so urgent, yet the outcome for the Iraq people will be the same at least. Im not calling this a 'heart felt liberation' by any means.

. . .

Just saying.

From the heart, I say that I hope those Barry Manilow records became "collatteral damage"  That alone would be justification.

Just saying.

[Lance]

Creamo, I love ya, but on what do you base the belief that Iraq supported terrorists that target the U.S.?   Every such indicator has, when you get to its roots, come from a government or intelligence official/agency simply asserting it is so.  There have been no demonstrated money trails, wire taps recordings, videos/photographs of meetings between Iraqi officials (or their proxies) and Al Qaeda members (or their proxies), or any other hard evidence made available to the public.  Even Rip's article above is just a government agency making a claim without presenting any evidence to support it.  

These are the same government or intelligence officials/agencies that presented the WMD case.  And if we find out that some of these people didn't verify their intelligence, hyped shaky intelligence, or outright fabricated intelligence regarding WMD to help sell the war, how can we trust what they assured us was true regarding Iraq's ties to Al Qaeda?

Hey, I am not sure that we've been misled or lied to.  I hope we haven't been, otherwise the near future is going to be ugly for the country.  But given the circumstances, I don't think its wrong to start questioning what we've been told.

[Arfann]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
"Bankrolled" (see bold paragraph below) is supporting terrorism. If the moneys not there, then its "a blow" so to speak

And our aggressive military actions will make it much easier for the baddies to acquire financing, even from those regimes we hadn't pissed off/on before.

[Arfann]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
[BMujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK/MKO) An Iranian Marxist-Islamic organization founded in the 1960s. MEK, both anti-Western and against Iran's clerical regime, is bankrolled by Saddam Hussein of Iraq. Activities: Murdered dozens of top-level Iranian officials since 1981. Aided Iraqi government in suppression of anti-Hussein Shia and Kurdish uprisings in 1991.
[/B]

They gotta nerve, messin' with Iran. The fundamentalist controlled Iran. The Iran we gettin' lined up in our sights right now. Better hurry, while there's some left to destroy!

[Arfann]

Originally posted by Eagler
yeah, I do ...

the first step in the right direction

So what's the next step, Missionaries with military back-up? Gotta get 'em ta believe our book, not their book, cause our book's the right book, right? Nuttin like a little para-assault proselityzin'.