Author Topic: NII VVS Discredited? (Read 1460 times)

Boroda · « **Reply #15 on:** June 18, 2003, 01:32:03 PM »

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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Responsibility does not mean executing or jailing enginners who give bad reports or make errors in design. Though I doubt youll see the difference.

If a person makes vital decisions - then his life is a matter of his responsibility.

Fortunately it didn't apply to engineers. Unfortunately it doesn't apply to brass hats any more.

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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ

Boroda its really hard to relax and enjoy the first few times, though I dont doubt it has become very easy and even pleasant for you over the years....

Grun, I lived "under communism" for quite a long time. You didn't. More to say, you are so proud that you were "raped" and think that this fact gives you the right to judge the things you don't understand and never even experienced that it makes me think you really wanted to be raped.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #16 on:** June 18, 2003, 02:09:21 PM »

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Originally posted by Boroda
Grun, I lived "under communism" for quite a long time. You didn't. More to say, you are so proud that you were "raped" and think that this fact gives you the right to judge the things you don't understand and never even experienced that it makes me think you really wanted to be raped.

And of course he does not see the difference just as I suspected....

As for the quote above:

Ladies and Gentlemen, here is an excellent example of communist brainwashing... Somehow my criticizm of communism is in some way a wish to live under it. You see in his abused mind it's impossible that communism come come out looking bad in any way whatsoever....

Boroda · « **Reply #17 on:** June 19, 2003, 01:27:50 PM »

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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And of course he does not see the difference just as I suspected....

As for the quote above:

Ladies and Gentlemen, here is an excellent example of communist brainwashing... Somehow my criticizm of communism is in some way a wish to live under it. You see in his abused mind it's impossible that communism come come out looking bad in any way whatsoever....

GH, your opinion about "communism" is worth nothing, because you have no idea of what you speak about. And, in fact, you sound just like a righteous comsomol member at the meeting. People like you turn your country into a meaner and worse version of stagnant USSR of the 70s.

I love your generalisations about Russian people. You are so full of nationalistic/cultural/religious hatred that you should be displayed in a zoo. People from Orthodox nations are untermenschen for you, and your justification of genocide in Srpska Krajna proves it.

I still want some details of Funked's story. Is this magazine availible on the Web somewhere?...

If NII VVS was supposed to meet political requirements in their research - we couldn't stand a chance in competing with the enemy.

GScholz · « **Reply #18 on:** June 19, 2003, 02:00:03 PM »

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Originally posted by Boroda
This was revealed when the finished aircraft reached the VVS. The head engineer in charge of the acceptance trials was executed.

That could be the truth, but I doubt that he really was executed. The main idea of Stalinism was responcibility. People in charge had enormous power, and enormous responcibility.

Why do you not think he was executed? I would have executed him on the spot! If I learned that I had just equipped my entire airforce with crappy planes in a time of war just because some bureaucrat faked the tests to keep his job, I would have thrown his mangled decapitated head on the floor of the TSagi test department and yelled "NEVER AGAIN!" !

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #19 on:** June 19, 2003, 02:02:39 PM »

Whats your obession with thinking that I have anything against the Orthodox church? But of course that just shows that you have a persecution complex too, though one could argue that generally fits into your inferiority complex.

And yea Boroda Russians do have an inferiority complex because they were excluded from "Europe' and felt backwards and as you so loving say of your dear Stalin had to be forced to catch up industrially and technologically , everyone knows that just as much as you deny it.

And frankly you know nothing about communism because as all of us have seen you say nothing but good about communism. It's interesting how you are so happy to bring out this "rape" metaphor - because thats exatly what you are, you're mind-fukd as mind-fukd as they come brainwashed from birth to not think, question and just eat it all up like some robotic drone. Its obvious in every one of your posts, stal was god, soviet russia greatest at everything, T-72 has equal armor all artound and is better than any tank in world, stalin was greatest leader, and so on and so on...

But thats OK Boroda, I dont wanna take that away from you as I'm sure these fanatsies of greatness are the only things that make you happy in your sad life...

funkedup · « **Reply #20 on:** June 19, 2003, 02:09:45 PM »

The magazine website is airspacemag.com
I'm surprised more of you guys (the yanks anyways) don't get it. It's one of the best publications out there for aviation history nerds.
I will scan the article this weekend.
I'll also scan the article on the reverse engineering of the B-29 if I can find that one. Both articles show (in the words of the engineers who were there) how politics and saving one's skin motivated soviet engineers and scientists more than truth and progress.

udet · « **Reply #21 on:** June 19, 2003, 02:55:55 PM »

Boroda- I don't have anything against Russians in general. As a matter of factI know a Russian chick I wouldn't mind going out with

I just hate communism. Pure and simple. I hate Lenin (his mind was affected by syphilis just like Hitler's , and he was sent by Germans to USSR to cause problems during WWI), I hate Stalin- he killed more of his own people than Hitler, I hate NKVD, Comisars and the "scythe and hammer" symbol you use as an avatar. I don't think an unskilled worker that hasn't even finished high-school should make as much as an engineer or doctor, and I DO wan't to get rich someday, and I would defend my PROPERTY with a gun if needed.
Yeah baby, Capitalism rules!!!

Hristo · « **Reply #22 on:** June 19, 2003, 03:11:43 PM »

While there may be truth in these stories, I wouldn't underestimate the Russians. Afterall, they made Il-2 (the sim).

Also, I can easily imagine how political authorities would look upon negative reports made by engineers. It was similar in my country, in many areas.

On the other hand, engineers were walking on very thin ice. If they gave accurate but negative reports, they got punished again.

So, in the end, they had no other choice but to make the best planes and come with true test results

.

P.S.
Doesn't anyone remember that movie about Bradley fighting vehicle, starring Kelsey Grammer ?

Hristo · « **Reply #23 on:** June 19, 2003, 03:59:14 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
Why do you not think he was executed? I would have executed him on the spot! If I learned that I had just equipped my entire airforce with crappy planes in a time of war just because some bureaucrat faked the tests to keep his job, I would have thrown his mangled decapitated head on the floor of the TSagi test department and yelled "NEVER AGAIN!" !

Again, how much was true in the Bradley fighting vehicle movie ?

GScholz · « **Reply #24 on:** June 19, 2003, 04:16:10 PM »

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Originally posted by Hristo
Again, how much was true in the Bradley fighting vehicle movie ?

I have no idea. Why do you ask?

Kweassa · « **Reply #25 on:** June 19, 2003, 09:03:09 PM »

I don't think anyone has the luxury of manipulating numbers to their own objectives, when your whole country is on the brink of destruction. Nowadays even a kid can go look up a good book and think "hmm.. was Germany stupid? They were fighting two fronts, and it's plain stupidity. They can never win!"

, however, this strategical analysis may not have been so convincing when the German military is "currently" marching to Crimea, Ukraine and started to surround Leningrad and Stalingrad.

Thus, I think use of data in the sense of propaganda and military use, should be differentiated. In that sense, I think Hohun's right - they would spew all sorts of fantasies to the public, or even send up 'optimistic' reports to their superiors - but the people directly in charge of departments concerning intelligence, R&D, and aircraft construction probably all knew the truth, and made adequate decisions and developments according to it. ('boss guys' are always clueless, whether be it the Soviet system or the capitalist one

the 'Dilbert' irony of it!)

Frankly, I think the 'false data' accusations is about as equal as the over claimings of planes shot down and destroyed by bomber gunners of the West. In the 'inner circle', there's always a different truth to tell.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #26 on:** June 20, 2003, 03:36:51 AM »

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Originally posted by Hristo
Again, how much was true in the Bradley fighting vehicle movie ?

Ahh yes that POS HBO trash.. Although it was fun to watch, the whole idiotic premise of the movie was the shocking idea that indeed the Bradley is less well armored and less survivable than an MBT... Ooooo!

MiloMorai · « **Reply #27 on:** June 20, 2003, 07:05:39 AM »

Did anyone notice that the British are experimenting with "plastic" tanks though not MBTs yet. A Chobhan type, of fibreglass instead of ceramics for now and later to be of carbon-fibre.

rshubert · « **Reply #28 on:** June 20, 2003, 11:22:31 AM »

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Originally posted by Kweassa
[B Frankly, I think the 'false data' accusations is about as equal as the over claimings of planes shot down and destroyed by bomber gunners of the West. In the 'inner circle', there's always a different truth to tell. [/B]

One huge difference would be that no American bomber gunner was ever SHOT for making an excessive claim, or sent to prison.

Boroda · « **Reply #29 on:** June 20, 2003, 12:30:30 PM »

Just like Soviet bomber gunners.