MAUS (marsupials against uber spits)

[Nath-BDP]

Um, Jochen, the Tempest V's wing loading is 38lb/sq ft, A8's 49lb/sq ft, and 109G 40lb/sq ft, also it has a roc of 4,700ft/min  



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1./Jagdgeschwader 51 "Mölders"

[Werewolf]

The K model is quite different compared to the G-10:

1. Top speed:  729 km/h  to 690 km/h
2. Ceiling:    12500 m   to 11600 m
3. Climbrate was 24,5 m/s
4. The K model got  2 x MG 151 instead of MG 131 and could carry a MK 103 instead of the MK 108 (firing through spinner)

Werewo
JG 301 "Heimatverteidigung"
 

[fd ski]

Jochen - as for the climb assumption - look at the link i provided. Someone posted test data for Finish 109G2 without MW50 or GM1.
It should be beaten by almost all spitfires mark 9.

Also, spitfire 9 we have in WB is the worst spit 9 we could have   It's an early F model as opposed to LF or HF models - both of which would outperform it...

Look at that post - good info there.

As for SPitfire Mk. V LF - it is not the same spitfire we have in WB. Down low in the weeds it was pretty darn fast. It's performance dropped off with weight by overall it wasn't so easily outflown by 109's and 190's..

from  http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spitv.html
Spit 5 LF
performance at 2k: 333.5 mph !!! ( same as 109G 6 with no boost !! ) and climb of 4720 ft/m !!!

How is that for an arena killer ?

That thing ever gets modeled in WB nobody would fly anything else..  

---------------------------------------
As for rest of you guys writing about the example i used for climb comparison - you missed my point.

I'm trying to disspell the myth in sims, that 109 can point it's nose up and get out of any  tight spot it ever gets into.
I can't tell you how many time i seen novice 109 pilot stand his plane on the tail, get shot and complain about overmodeled spitfire...
There is an assumption that spitfires climb like crap and 109's have rocket in it's ass. Well, sorry. It doesn't work that way.
Simple 50mph on the merge will negate any climb adventage 109 can have in a dogfight.
IT's no longer Hurri vs 109e - it doesn't work that way.



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Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
   www.raf303.org  

[fats]

--- werewolf: ---
4. The K model got 2 x MG 151 instead of MG 131 and could carry a MK 103 instead of the MK 108 (firing through spinner)
--- end ---

The K-4 MG 151* are a myth AFAIK.


//fats
*) note to anyone not similar with LW guns, MG 151 is actually 15mm and MG 151/20 is the 20mm cannon found on Fw 190 and Bf 109F-4 and later.

[Werewolf]

Fats, that is the info I got:

There have been two variants of the 109K

1. K-4: 2 x MG 151 above engine, Mk 108 or Mk 103 firing through spinner.

2. K-6: 2 x MG 131 above engine, Mk 108 or Mk 103 firing through spinner, 2 x Mk 108 in gondolas below wings.

My source of information is "Die Luftwaffe" by Tony Wood and Bill Gunston.
The information they give has been proven to be correct very often and unless it is no printing fault I am quite sure the info is correct. Nevertheless I will try to double check the info.

Werewo
JG 301 "Heimatverteidigung"

P.S. They give some info on F variants with 2 x MG 151 too (F-2: MG-FF through spinner, 2 x MG 151)

[CombatWombat]

While it seems my origional points were mostly ignored in favor of 109 gun config aurguments, that thread fdski posted had some useful information and confirmed some things I thought.

If we're gonna get a Spit Mk9, we need a specific type.  HF, F, or LF.  This would definitely help clarrify much info.  
Since we have the 109G and 190A because they were numerous, I would think the Spit IX LF would be a good choice since it was also produced in the greatest numbers.  Nomatter what spit is selected, it would help if it was a specific model.  Our current spit seems like the HF F and LF wrapped in one = )
Kinda a Spit P82 if you will, just with 3 fuesalages.....

[CombatWombat]

While it seems my origional points were mostly ignored in favor of 109 gun config aurguments, that thread fdski posted had some useful information and confirmed some things I thought.

If we're gonna get a Spit Mk9, we need a specific type.  HF, F, or LF.  This would definitely help clarrify much info.  
Since we have the 109G and 190A because they were numerous, I would think the Spit IX LF would be a good choice since it was also produced in the greatest numbers.  Nomatter what spit is selected, it would help if it was a specific model.  Our current spit seems like the HF F and LF wrapped in one = )
Kinda a Spit P82 if you will, just with 3 fuesalages.....

[Pongo]

For purposes of Vulching the Spit V LF would be an even worse nightmare.
Might be cool to let the Spit pilots choose though just like the 109/190 pilots can flip their weapons around.

cowl 151s? in a 109.. That was a proposed mod for the ta152 I think but not for any version of the 109.


[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 11-15-1999).]

[juzz]

Jochen

I know about the Tempest's performance, thats WHY I want it, instead of the Spit 14. The Tempest is very fast below 10k, and has better roll rate than the Spit 14 at high(350mph+) speed.

Of course if you want a real UberSpit the F.21 is the one to go for, no more high speed aileron problems, 4x20mm Hispanos  

About guns - Gustin's WWII Fighter Gun Debate page:
 

it was not possible to install the MG 151 in the engine cowling of small fighters such as the Bf 109 or Fw 190; only the Do 335 and Ta 152C had the MG 151 as cowl gun. The MG 151 was a much heavier, much more powerful weapon, and it replaced the 20mm MG-FF as centreline armament on the Bf 109F. During the war a copy of the MG 151 was designed in the USA, modified to fire a very powerful .60 (15.2 x 114, 76.5g) round. But this T17 gun never reached service, and only about 350 were made.

(gun,round(weight),rof,m.vel,weight)
MG131 13x64B(34.6g) 900rpm 730m/s 17kg
MG151 15x96(57g) 700rpm 960m/s 42kg

and:
 

It was an excellent, powerful weapon, but again it could not be carried by a fighter without considerable loss of performance. Only at the very end of the war did some fighters carry the MK103 gun. Installations in the wings tended to be inaccurate, because the enormous recoil twisted the wing; centreline installations as engine cannon were designed for the Ta 152C, Do 335 and Bf 109K, but evidence that this was turned into hardware exists only for the Do 335 and the prototypes of the Ta 152C. The fighter designs that were on German drawing boards in 1945 sometimes made provision for the MK 103, but the favorite weapon was the MK 108.

MK103 30x184B(330g) 420rpm 860m/s 146kg  
MK108 30x90RB(312g) 600rpm 505m/s 64kg

How about this for a WW2 cannon though:
 

The MG 213C was designed in 1944, and it was a revolver gun with a five-chamber cylinder. By dividing the loading of a cartridge in three steps, a high rate of fire could be achieved while keeping the forces within the gun limited. There were 20mm and 30mm versions. The MG 213C made linear action guns obsolete for fighters, and was copied widely.

MG 213C/20 20x135(112g) 1400rpm 1050m/s 75kg
MG 213C/30 30x85B(330g) 1200rpm 530m/s 75kg

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 11-15-1999).]

[Jochen]

 

Jochen - as for the climb assumption - look at the link i provided. Someone posted test data for Finish 109G2 without MW50 or GM1.

It should be beaten by almost all spitfires mark 9.

We are now talking about different generation of fighter planes.

I'm quite sure that G-2 went to action before Spit IX was used operationally in large scale. That means that G-2 faced mostly Spit V's which it could handily outclimb and outrun.

Spit IX and G-6 are the match we are looking for. Since almost all G-6's had either MW 50 or GM 1 I would imagine that despite it's little bigger weight is more than compensated on climb. And on climb the bumps of G-6 are not creating that much drag since air speed is pretty low.

In general, of course Spit IX was bigger step ahead than moving from F series to G series, no doubt about that.

 

Look at that post - good info there.

Yep, I have been (s)trolling there lately lobbying for G-2  

[/quote]As for SPitfire Mk. V LF - it is not the same spitfire we have in WB. Down low in the weeds it was pretty darn fast. It's performance dropped off with weight by overall it wasn't so easily outflown by 109's and 190's.[/quote]

Hmm, the Ospreys book about Spit V aces says that clipped wing gave little better top speed (I think it was 10-15 mph), little better roll rate and little worser turn rate. Maybe the top speed was better with later model of Merlin?

As arena plane, low level performance is useful and Spit V LF would be great in that role. But in 1 vs 1 co alt, if the 109 has bit of distance if could start shallow climb and maybe get to alt where LF would start to sweat.

 

Spit 5 LF performance at 2k: 333.5 mph !!! ( same as 109G 6 with no boost !! ) and climb of 4720 ft/m !!!

I would think that same generation G-2 would be bit faster than G-6 without boost meaning it's bit faster than Spit V LF in low, the difference of course increases with alt. Climb on the other hand sounds pretty damn good but it will also decline when alt increases.


 

How is that for an arena killer ?

That thing ever gets modeled in WB nobody would fly anything else...

Now, who would like to see even more Spits?  

If some WWII sim manages to produce system for limiting plane availability or usability (range?), modeling very high performance planes is not an problem. In WB where everybody can fly whatever they like it is a problem for my opinion.

I don't mind modeling best models of Spit, I just want to see them in historic proportions on arenas. And that is what really counts if you think money because diversity is not a bad thing.

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jochen
Geschwaderkommodore
Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (Warbirds)

If you ever get across the sea to England,
Then maybe at the closing of the day
The bars will all be serving German lager
Which means we won the war - hip hip hooray!

[Jochen]

 

Um, Jochen, the Tempest V's wing loading is 38lb/sq ft, A8's 49lb/sq ft, and 109G 40lb/sq ft, also it has a roc of 4,700ft/min

Odd, Ospreys recent Typhoon/Tempest book says that Tempest was not that good in turning stating that Fw 190A was close to it?

Maybe it was high speed turning ability or something, it also mentioned that Tempest had handling troubles in high speeds.

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jochen
Geschwaderkommodore
Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (Warbirds)

If you ever get across the sea to England,
Then maybe at the closing of the day
The bars will all be serving German lager
Which means we won the war - hip hip hooray!

[fats]

--- werewolf: ---
1. K-4: 2 x MG 151 above engine, Mk 108 or Mk 103 firing through spinner.

2. K-6: 2 x MG 131 above engine, Mk 108 or Mk 103 firing through spinner, 2 x Mk 108 in gondolas below wings.
--- end ---

Grabbed the first four books about the 109 from my shelves:
1) Messerchmitt Bf 109 F, G & K series
2) The Luftwaffe Profile Series No.2 Messershmitt Bf 109G/K
3) Monogram Close-Up 9 Bf 109F
4) Messerschmitt Bf 109 In Action part 2.

The 1) says:

"Bf 109K-4

...Armament of the K-4 consisted of an engine mounted MK 108, which by now was installed on the production line, as well as two MG 131 machine-guns above the engine. There were aircraft, however, which were delivered with an MG151/20 engine mounted cannon."

"Bf 109K-6

...The K-6 was to be largely similar to the K-4; the only difference was to be the installation of two MK 108 in the wings, which is why the K-6 was designated 'heavy fighter'"

The 2) confirms the above and has an illustration of the wing MK 108 being inside the new wing of the K-6, not in gondolas. The 4) also agree's on K-4's armament to have been MK 108 and MG 131s

--- werewolf: ---
P.S. They give some info on F variants with 2 x MG 151 too (F-2: MG-FF through spinner, 2 x MG 151)
--- end ---

According to the 3) the F-2 was the only F model to have MG 151, and it was installed as the engine cannon and two cowl MG 17s.

I can found no reference to MG 151 being fitted to any other Bf 109, except BF 109F-2. I do recall one of my books discussing especially the myth of the cowl MG 151s on K-4, but couldn't find it right now.


//fats

[Werewolf]

Grat info fats. Ireg will visit an archive here in Germany soon and I asked him to check original documents for the MG 151 variants too.

Werewo
JG 301 "Heimatverteidigung"