Author Topic: Remodeling the flight model  (Read 8572 times)

Offline Fariz

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Remodeling the flight model
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2003, 04:19:57 AM »
Thanks for the news! Seems we will need to learn to fly again as we did after the "chess in the sky" were fixed :)

It seems fixing this problems will lead to correct modeling of la7, so it will be both faster and will turn with spit V like in reality. :D

Offline Naso

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Remodeling the flight model
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2003, 04:35:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fariz
It seems fixing this problems will lead to correct modeling of la7, so it will be both faster and will turn with spit V like in reality. :D


:eek: OH, NOOO!!!!!


:D

Thanks Pyro for the news, I must confess, I am trying Il2FB and I like the FM and the engine management it have, and AH2 seem to point in an improvement that will goes near to it, and this have only a big difference for me:

I will never be free from AH addiction!! :)

Help!

;)

HTC and WTG!

Offline Mini D

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Remodeling the flight model
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2003, 07:53:36 AM »
Straiga,

You do realize that in trying to "school" pyro, you said the exact same thing he said:
Quote
Pyro:

The propwash from a propellor comes off in a vortex that corkscrews back over the airplane. In a standard clockwise rotating engine, the vortex strikes the right wing with a downward component and the left wing with an upward component. This increases the effective aoa of the left wing and decreases the effective aoa of the right wing, hence more lift on the left wing and less on the right.

The slipstream continues to corkscrew back to the tailplane where it impacts the vertical stabilizer on the left side which pushes the tail to the right and the nose to the left. This is the main force causing the left yaw on your takeoff roll.
The helicopter requires something to offset torque between the blade and the fuselage.  Basically, the blades turn one way and the fuselage wants to rotate the other.  If this could be done using a rudder, there would simply be a paddle on the bottom of a helicopter.  But it can't, so there isn't.

MiniD

Offline Ghosth

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Remodeling the flight model
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2003, 08:15:32 AM »
Thanks for the update Pyro, we certainly appreciate anything you can tell us.

Glad to hear the planes are getting touched up as needed.

Should make this a brand new game again.  

Offline hitech

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Remodeling the flight model
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2003, 09:17:27 AM »
Curtis: Pfactor has 0 effect when a plane isn't moving simply because up and down sweaping blades don't have a difference in air speed, as when the plane is moving. Vortex/slipstream  is the primary yaw force at the start of a take off roll. Next primary effect is gyro when the tail lifts. Pfactor biggest effect is at high AOA and hi speed.

What pyro was talking about with the tail wheel is all tail wheels are the same currently in AH, and the all are fixed to and turn with the rudder.

We once made one simple change to the model of a castoring tail wheel like some of the planes had. This little change made takeoffs completly different. We are currently looking into the different types of tail wheel linkages and might make a change to it.

HiTech

Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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Remodeling the flight model
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2003, 09:52:36 AM »
hitech, your gonna have to edimicate use old timers, I'm 36 but learned to fly taildraggers 22 years ago...yes I was 14.

I sat down and started reading the books again and concluded that what I said was right, however, upon further reading of modern up to date material, I must sit neutral for a while. I also found this........"There are quite a lot of myths surrounding P-factor. For some reason, P-factor gets blamed for the fact that typical aircraft require right rudder on initial takeoff roll. This is impossible for several reasons.

    * Nearly everybody these days learns to fly in nose-wheel type aircraft, which means the propeller disk is vertical during the initial the takeoff roll. Since there is no angle between the relative wind and the propeller axis, P-factor obviously cannot occur.
* Now let's suppose, just for sake of argument, that you are flying a taildragger, in which the propeller disk is actually non-vertical during the initial takeoff roll. Common experience is that the most right rudder is required at the very beginning of the takeoff, before much forward speed has been achieved. The Flight Training Handbook says this is because P-factor is worst at low airspeeds. But wait a minute — real P-factor is proportional to airspeed. In the initial moments of the takeoff roll, there is no relative wind, so there can't possibly be any P-factor. Of course, if you are taking off into a headwind, there could be a little bit of P-factor — but does that mean if you take off with a slight tailwind there will be a negative amount of P-factor, requiring left rudder? Don't bet on it.

The real reason that you need right rudder on initial takeoff roll is because of the helical propwash, as discussed in section 8.4. P-factor exists in some circumstances, but it cannot possibly explain the behavior we observe during initial takeoff roll."

Makes since huh?

Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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Remodeling the flight model
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2003, 10:00:46 AM »
Quote
We are currently looking into the different types of tail wheel linkages and might make a change to it.


It will be nice to be able to lock one brake and spin around, i.e. refuel pad, preparing for formation departures etc. There is nothing like having to taxi completly off the runway to form up at a 45 deg angle on the edge of the runway.

You guys keep on, maybe we can use AH as a"currency" tool and log this flight time as "sim time" in our log books..hehehehehe

Offline hitech

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« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2003, 10:11:28 AM »
Straiga: Currious who your instructors are because they are just wrong.

Explain how with 0 forward speed one blade has more aoa than another. Note air flow do to low pressure in front of the prop will be perpendicular to the prop plane, not paralell with the ground.

Curtiss: "helical propwash" vortex and slipstream all refer to the same thing. So the 2nd piece of your post is what I was explaining.

HiTech

Offline Tilt

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Remodeling the flight model
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2003, 10:31:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fariz
Thanks for the news! Seems we will need to learn to fly again as we did after the "chess in the sky" were fixed :)

It seems fixing this problems will lead to correct modeling of la7, so it will be both faster and will turn with spit V like in reality. :D


La's get Slats!!!

Whooopeeee lower stall speeds (High speed and low) but when you do  that wing will lose lift with no warning other than the audible click of the slat hard agin its actuator arm.

Torque effects corrected ........short stumpy plane gonna have increased yaw with throttle changes compared to others?

But will they give it the gear bounce it was infamous for?

and correct the 6 view changing half  the steel brackets to a thick glass section?

and strip it of half it's AH instrumentation.

you were kidding about the speed and turn rate thing tho right;)
Ludere Vincere

Offline icemaw

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Remodeling the flight model
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2003, 10:31:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2Hawks
Uhm, Pyro... :D May I introduce to you the CH-46?


 Um the rotors counter rotate cancelling out the torque!
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Offline Pyro

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Remodeling the flight model
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2003, 10:39:25 AM »
Straiga,

Re-read what I wrote and the links I provided.  It comes across as hypocritical to suggest somebody get a book when you're obviously not bothering to read what's been provided.  As to my helicopter example, it is not a comparison between the flight physics of rotary and fixed wing aircraft.  It is just two simple questions to illustrate the effect of engine torque.  They aren't trick questions.

Offline Wilbus

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Remodeling the flight model
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2003, 11:00:24 AM »
Hey Pyro, would you please look into acceleration (overall on all planes).

In AH, as it is now, about every twin in the game has better initial acceleration than most single prop planes, this goes for both the 110, Mossie, P38 and A20. Specially when diving. Just a feeling, nothing to back it up with, maybe it was like it for real but seams odd, specially judging from what you read about the twins against single engine planes, specially the 110 which got pretty slaughtered.

Also, the 190/Ta152 accel and F4u accel seem off after reading about tests made during WW2.

Great news btw, looking very much forward to it.
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Offline 2Hawks

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« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2003, 11:15:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by icemaw
Um the rotors counter rotate cancelling out the torque!


I am aware of this, I was having a passive aggressive moment and felt the need to be a twit. :)

Look forward to that 'New' LA7 - keep the updates coming Pryo! Thank You!

Offline Tinker

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« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2003, 11:38:30 AM »
While we are discussing correcting some of the problem areas of the Current Aces High Aircraft, there is one area that "irks" me to "no end".
  That is the fact that in aircraft such as the bf 109 the current model allows Combat Trim to overcome the stick applied control forces.

   On the bf 109-G10 for example with control trim "on" as the manuvers get tighter and airspeed is reduced the applications of stick movements are given less and less control authority. In the worst case you can have the stick all the way to the left and still be rolling to the right. due to the fact that the combat trim still applying the control it had set a few seconds before.

The control authority of the trim system should never overcome the pilots stick input control commands.....

:rolleyes:

This effect seems to be present on most of the AH fighters. I gave the 109-G10 as an example.:)

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2003, 12:03:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus


In AH, as it is now, about every twin in the game has better initial acceleration than most single prop planes, this goes for both the 110, Mossie, P38 and A20.  


I don't know about the bf110 and the A-20 but I think that's how it really was with the P-38, at least that what they say in the 1943 training film "Flight Characteristics of the P-38".

Flight Characteristics of the P-38 - 1943 WW II training film



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