Author Topic: Question To All You WWII Buffs (Read 591 times)

DVDA · « **on:** June 18, 2003, 12:38:42 AM »

Hey guys i have a question for you all you WWII fanatics, the other day i was watching a movie i hasnt seen in a long time called "The Blue Max" it is a movie about German World War 1 Pilots who reiceve this medal called blue max, this medal categorized you as an "Ace" and was awarded after recording 20 kills.

My question is in World War II how many kills did Allied Pilots have to record to be categorized as an Ace or to recieve this type of medal?

F4i · « **Reply #1 on:** June 18, 2003, 01:00:39 AM »

5 kills

DVDA · « **Reply #2 on:** June 18, 2003, 01:05:58 AM »

you sure? I asked somewhere else and they said 12 hehe

Also i found a website that has the top Aces Of WWII

And for the U.S the top Ace Has 40 Kills
And For Germany The Top Ace Has 352 Kills

How is that possible 312 more kills for the german Ace seems like a crap load

F4i · « **Reply #3 on:** June 18, 2003, 01:27:34 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by DVDA
you sure? I asked somewhere else and they said 12 hehe

Also i found a website that has the top Aces Of WWII

And for the U.S the top Ace Has 40 Kills
And For Germany The Top Ace Has 352 Kills

How is that possible 312 more kills for the german Ace seems like a crap load

German pilots flew year after year whether injured or not. Some even flew without legs, for Cod's sake.

Allied pilots went home after a serious injury.

As the war went on, there were fewer Luftwaffe airmen compared to the droves of new pilots that fed the Allied rosters. Towards the end of the war, if you had a pulse and 10 hours of flight training, the Luftwaffe wanted you in the air. And, once up, you know you had A HELLUVA LOT of targets to shoot at because the Allied planes were everywhere. That is why the Luftwaffe aces scored so well...there was always a fight.

F4i

Karnak · « **Reply #4 on:** June 18, 2003, 01:31:51 AM »

J. E. Johnson (The top scoring Allied ace in Western Europe with 38 kills) was once asked by an obnoxious reporter why he didn't get as many kills as the German aces did. He replied that he didn't see that many enemy aircraft in the whole war.

Tumor · « **Reply #5 on:** June 18, 2003, 01:32:19 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by DVDA
you sure? I asked somewhere else and they said 12 hehe

Also i found a website that has the top Aces Of WWII

And for the U.S the top Ace Has 40 Kills
And For Germany The Top Ace Has 352 Kills

How is that possible 312 more kills for the german Ace seems like a crap load

The short version is, the German pilots flew for the duration of the war, and they were good.

_Schadenfreude_ · « **Reply #6 on:** June 18, 2003, 02:52:59 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by DVDA
you sure? I asked somewhere else and they said 12 hehe

Also i found a website that has the top Aces Of WWII

And for the U.S the top Ace Has 40 Kills
And For Germany The Top Ace Has 352 Kills

How is that possible 312 more kills for the german Ace seems like a crap load

For the most part Allied fliers flew for about 120 hours of combat missions before being sent for rest or training.

Axis fliers flew untill they died.

On average fighter pilots lasted 85 hours of combat flying before being either killed or seriously injured.

MRPLUTO · « **Reply #7 on:** June 18, 2003, 07:22:02 AM »

Most of the high-scoring Luftwaffe pilots got their kills on the Eastern front where there were numerous targets often flown by inexperienced pilots.

For example, how many kills do you think 8 109's would get if they intercepted a large, unescorted formation of Boston-type bombers? (Actually DB-2's in this example.) "We attacked from below and behind and shot many of them down," wrote Gunter Rall (275 kills). "Since they had no fighter escort it was simple."

Rall reported that, "We flew three and four times a day, and some days a pilot would shoot down four or five, including a long-nosed Yak or a Lagg with that big air-cooled engine."

On every front the Germans were outnumbered, so they had more opportunities to make kills than their opponents.

MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33

Grendel · « **Reply #8 on:** June 18, 2003, 08:04:15 AM »

Soviet pilots didn't have rotation either. Their - and the Allied's therefore as well - top aces ranked around 60 kills each.

Sharky · « **Reply #9 on:** June 18, 2003, 08:33:25 AM »

DVDA

The Por le Merit or "Blue Max" had nothing to do with "Ace" status. In WWI the germans didn't even use the term, I believe it was a French invention and the original number was 10 victorys.

The Blue Max was simply the highest award for valor. I believe that Immelman and Bolke received their's for less than 10 victories but by the end of the war 40 or more victories might have been required before a pilot was nominated for the award.

By the time of WWII most airforces had settled on the number of 5 air to air kills as the mark of the "ace" though many airforces didn't use the term in any "official" context.

Sharky

OIO · « **Reply #10 on:** June 18, 2003, 06:14:04 PM »

also remember that many german aces flew before ww2 began and had some kills from the spanish civil war.

then they flew against the soviets and the other MAINLAND euro nations which had either very poor equipment (aka, 109s vs biplanes) or poor training or both (soviet union falls under this category in the early/mid war..they were shot down by the thousands by just a few german squadrons).

It wasnt until the germans began to attack england that their experienced pilots began to die or meet serious opposition. Later on it was the sheer numbers the American air force put up against them that slowly killed them or neutralized these aces.

Germany had many *extremely* experienced pilots, but even a superace has little chance when facing 1000 enemy fighters in the sky flown by novice pilots.

and of course, german pilots with their kill scores in the hundreds+ flew for years seeing combat in almost every sortie. on the other hand, USA pilots flew only 100 missions from which they usually only saw combat in an average of 12 of those missions and then they returned home.

TracerX · « **Reply #11 on:** June 18, 2003, 06:27:54 PM »

DVDA,

I remember seeing parts of The Blue Max movie when I was young, but I think your making a connection between the Blue Max award and status of Ace which is not correct. Sharky summed it up well. It was widely held on both sides of the WWI and WWII that 5 kills qualified someone as an Ace, but additional awards were often given to Aces who showed exceptional merit. Each country would have its own standards for the decorations they gave to their "Ace" pilots. For example, the German Knight's Cross was given at 50 kills early in WWII, but later in the war, over 100 victories were required. I think that Erich Hartmann (352 victories) didn't get his Knights Cross untill he had 150 victories. Becoming an Ace (5 Kills) was not a higly decorated event, because it often took many more victories to obtain a distinguishing award like the Blue Max (WWI), or Knights Cross (WWII).

Furball · « **Reply #12 on:** June 18, 2003, 09:20:19 PM »

5 kills for an ace, great WWI resource on aircombat here http://www.theaerodrome.com

WOOD1 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 19, 2003, 03:01:51 AM »

Wasn't the top scoring Russian Fighter Pilot a woman?

AKwoody

Imp · « **Reply #14 on:** June 19, 2003, 06:00:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by WOOD1
Wasn't the top scoring Russian Fighter Pilot a woman?

AKwoody

The White Rose of Stalingrad had 17 kills I think.
Lilly Litvak or something like that

She wasnt close to being the top Russian ace.
She was pretty damn good though.

Im not sure Ace status was the same for all countries.
5 kills for Germans was not much with over 50 pilots having 100.

Goering received the Blue Max and he had 22 kills.