Author Topic: Why So High?  (Read 1759 times)

Offline Rude

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4609
Why So High?
« on: June 23, 2003, 02:07:12 PM »
I can understand wanting an advantage in a fight, but combined with superior numbers, why not just engage?

Seeing more and more of this style of gameplay...do what brings ya the fun, just help me understand the motivation for not engaging a lower and slower opponent please.

Thank you

Offline Curval

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11572
      • http://n/a
Why So High?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2003, 02:20:08 PM »
Rude,

Most times I take off, point my plane in the vicinity of the Cons..and then go do something else.  Alot of the time I'm at 30k before I get back.

That's my excuse..and I'm sticking to it.  ;)

Don't worry though, I blow all that alt in my first pass.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Why So High?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2003, 03:26:02 PM »
If they're in a large group, they're probably not interested in a lone fighter down low. They're probably on their way to pork some airfield.
sand

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Why So High?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2003, 03:49:36 PM »
Rude, I actually find this to be a great source of amusement/bemusement.
I'll see a base that is being swarmed with little or no defenders present, then head over at 12 or 15k.  I'll get there and see a mass of guys vulching and generally laying waste to the base.  Then I look up and see 4 or 5 guys at 25K, maybe they'll make a half hearted attempt at me, maybe not.  I often wonder who these guys are, and just how much fun it can be to fly that high in an area where there are no opponents.
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Why So High?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2003, 03:52:48 PM »
Was that a whine or what?

Offline Rude

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4609
Why So High?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2003, 04:10:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
Was that a whine or what?


I only seek the truth brother Staga:)

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
Why So High?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2003, 04:29:33 PM »
Superior alt, superior plane, superior numbers, if these conditions are not met you do not engage.  You spread them lips out wide and fly on.  Its the new mantra of the ***** arena.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2003, 04:48:30 PM by Urchin »

Offline Drunky

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2017
Re: Why So High?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2003, 05:25:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
I can understand wanting an advantage in a fight, but combined with superior numbers, why not just engage?

Seeing more and more of this style of gameplay...do what brings ya the fun, just help me understand the motivation for not engaging a lower and slower opponent please.

Thank you



I have to agree.  They are making me look like an 'insanely agressive' pile-it when I fly at an enemy plane :p
Drunky | SubGenius
Fat Drunk Bastards
B.A.A.H. - Black Association of Aces High

Offline -ammo-

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5124
Why So High?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2003, 05:37:45 PM »
drunky-

You just think you can "hear" Jimmy.  But you can't hear Jimmy.
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline Saurdaukar

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8610
      • Army of Muppets
Why So High?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2003, 06:09:21 PM »
Rude.  

Youre forgetting that everyone that plays the game nowadays is a hot stick.  If they get shot down, the shame is roughly equivalent to having their noodle removed with a rusty, blunt butter knife.

Its not an advantage thing, its not an alt thing, its not a plane thing.  I find that more and more people simply wont engage unless they are absolutely sure they can fight and win or fight and leave if they get into trouble.

I actually had three La7's run from my homely Spit V the other day - Im not sure what other advantage they wanted?

Of course you follow them for a short while... then turn and leave after its clear they dont want any of your plywood terror and peashooters... and sure enough, they turn to follow you as if you've forgetten they were back there.

::whisper:: Psst... keep the chatter down guys... we're going to sneak up on him... shhhhh!!

So you turn back at them, avoid three HO's and then they keep going again in the same direction... you follow, etc etc etc, repeat, repeat, repeat.

Booorrrrrrrrring.

I find the only way to get action is to fly around in a P47 - youll be surrounded by cons in no time flat - cons trip over themselves to get a crack at you.

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Why So High?
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2003, 06:14:06 PM »
What a buncha whiners. :D

Offline NoBaddy

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2943
      • http://www.damned.org
Why So High?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2003, 07:20:42 PM »
Rude...

It is a sign of AH's success. If you were around in AW prior to CRIS, the average alt was about 5k. Increase the players...increase the alt. Hell, with what alt costs these days...why not? :D
NoBaddy (NB)

Flying since before there was virtual durt!!
"Ego is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity."

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Why So High?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2003, 07:42:51 PM »
Stratodweebs... Ya gotta admire their patience if nothing else. ;)

I've seen base capture missions where two dozen Mustangs where up above 25k!!! You couldn't generate more augers if someone announced on the open channel that Katherine Zeta-Jones was doing naked lap dances on MTV.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Why So High?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2003, 08:17:37 PM »
This what I've  posted in the "Perk The Big Four" thread, in the Gameplay forums, offers a partial explanation on the "superior numbers+alt, or don't engage, just run" tendencies seen in the MA as of late.
 
 Basically, the combination of the planes which are overused, (a combination of roles which once, long ago, was carried out by the F4U-1C + the usual Spit+N1Ks alone) promotes that kind of behavior.

 One may argue that "then why was that tendency not so visible when the F4U-1C was unperked?"

 The reasons are simple:

1) The increase in MA numbers have dropped the overall average skill level of players. Simply, the more people there is overall, the less percentage of people who know to really fight.

2) With the splitting of the roles due to the perking of the F4U-1C, now, there are other planes which carry out the pure low-alt fighter role with even better efficiency than the F4U-1C. Simply put, not many planes caught the F4U-1C running away in the old days. They were lighter, and only about the P-51D and the Typhoon was faster. Now, there's the D-9 and the La-7 added to the list of the faster planes, the latter being virtually as fast as the Tempest.

 ...

 Thus, with the new combination of four planes, each role(which the F4U-1C was once, doing by itself) became more efficient and specialized - now, all countries use that combination of planes. It is a deadly combination, and thus, the only real advantage within a large battle, is numbers and alt advantage(plus, fuel advantage which dictate the alt advantage - which also partially explains the fuel porking suicides of late, too).

 Here's the post:

 ........................

That is unless one removes(or rather, regulates - "removing" a plane via punitive perk costs, is not the same thing as lightly perking them for regulating them) a total 'section' of certain fighters above certain performance levels, so that the very style of gameplay may change - currently, as I see it, the "MA style" of combat is a result of certain planes being interdependant on each other.

Planes being interdependant on each other is not a bad thing, but however, when those are the few plane types that are qualified for variety of purposes, being excellent in almost every category, the problem rises that practically other planes are rendered obsolete.

.........

La-7, P-51D, Typhoon, N1K2, Spit9 - these are all you need right now.

For jabo and suppression, the P-51Ds and Typhoons carry out the task with more ordnance than most of the jabo planes, far better survivability than most bombers, and then they can also immediately switch to versatile fighter roles after ordnance is dropped.

Mid to high alt fights, the P-51Ds used en masse takes the cake.

Low alt engagements and suppression, the La-7 does it all.

And the backbone of air power, the planes used in the 'grunt' role of air combat, chasing down slow planes or engaging other 'grunts', with high attrition levels - Spit9 and N1K2. These are planes that have exceptional maneuverability and yet, have decent speed(The N1K2 and Spit9 considered slow planes? Probably, to those who regularly use G-10s, D-9s, La-7s and P-51Ds, Typhoons. To the other planes below the "1944" levels, they are fast enough to be a big threat). Of those two, the former is a bit better suited for mid-high alt performance, and the latter can take on a jabo role if required, with four cannons of 900 rounds of ammo.

...

The combination of the above mentioned 4~5 planes(which, also happen to be the 'big four', except the Typhoon(if one considers jabo purposes, the Typhoon probably joins the 'big four' in usage)), is the exact element of their overusage. The 'big four' are the 'big four', because combination of those four, is the key to winning the land-grab theme surrounding the MA.

Then what about the superior numbers, alt-monkeying, running at the sight of co-E plane crap that's been going on? Simple.

Since all of the countries are now using that "Big four Combo" regularly, apparently there's no advantage gained in the combination of other plane types - thus, the advantage is earned by sheer numbers.

Since the "Big four combo" is so fediddlein' lethal, now, nobody, not even the vets, can be sure that they can meet a plane and win against it quickly in a major battle zone. As soon as you get that one guy, a La-7 comes on you co-alt, a P-51D drops down from high, and the Spits and N1K2s are waiting for you down low!  Either you stick to that "SA" thingy like the ticket to heaven at Armageddon's Day, or you become a victim, and at the same time, the perpetrator of it.

..

So, what about the other planes? The G-10 and the D-9?

These are probably the only two planes which can vaguely substitute the above roles that the P-51D and the La-7 plays. However, the huge difference in armament(thanks to that long-range aspect of Hispanos and .50s) makes them crappy substitutes at best, not to mention they are both no match in the multi-purpose category(too limited in jabo role).

So, basically the G-10 plays as a substitue for the La-7, but due to their insane climb rates, limited ammo and sucky weaponery, and special 'gadgetry' such as the gun pods.. they play a more defensive version of it. The D-9 plays the mid-high alt substitute role for the P-51D. Thus, these become the only two planes really worthy of considering use in the MA environment.

The P-38L, is a cross-breed between the P-51D and the Typhoon(in efficiency as the MA fighter) - heavier jabo loads, limited "running" capability, but better conventional dogfight capability. These show up when either they are suicidal, or the target field is already suppressed.

...

So seriously, will they go for another ride when the "big four" is perked? Yes, with simular results. The 'accident' in the MA, where Spits couldn't take off in Bugisles, showed that the Spits move on to N1K2s. People will move to the crappier substitue versions of their former La-7s and P-51Ds, but still, the results won't be too different.

But when the entire "section" of late war planes are perked?

Some say diversity cannot be reached by perking or regulating. But they are wrong.

The perking of the F4U-1C, is a testament to that. The F4U-1C is a four Hispano armed plane - which adds a vast advantage to its A2A capabilities, which carries 6 rockets and 2000lbs ordnance, can take off from a carrier, and also is one of the fastest planes on deck(slow acceleration and limited WEP, but the F4U-1D and the F4U-1C, is faster than the Bf109G-10).

It was a "one-plane-do-all" fighter.

When it was perked, what happened? Since no other plane has that kind of capabilities, it's role in the MA is now carried out by three different planes - P-51D, La-7, and the Typhoon! Also, in carrier ops, it's role is split into three by the F4U-1D for jabo, and the F6F-5 and the Seafire for pure A2A suppression. In short, the F4U-1C alone, was doing the job of 6 different fighters in the MA.

With the perk costs, increased risk, and added correct weight, it is now 6 different planes that carry the job that once, the F4U-1C did alone.

That explains why we'll never see a single plane doing 20% of all the kills in the MA ever! And that also means that 20% is now not the standard on which 'overusage' should be judged upon. Relative monoploy is what should be considered.

8 points for the F4U-1C gave way to 6 different fighter types in the MA. Therefore, perking some of the "late war fighter" section, should also be able to give way to other fighters by splitting the role which once one fighter could do alone by itself.

Perks do increase diversity.

Regulating the total section of late war fighters, which is consisted of the "Big four" plus its substitutes, will force the overall planeset into an era prior to the emerging of the "Super planes", where realtive performance margins are better balanced. Not to mention that also, the roles formerly carried out by them(which was once carried by the F4U-1C alone) will also split into other plane types - jabo role to the dedicated jabo planes, fighter role to the pure fighter planes.

Offline Mathman

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1921
Why So High?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2003, 08:18:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
Superior alt, superior plane, superior numbers, if these conditions are not met you do not engage.  You spread them lips out wide and fly on.  Its the new mantra of the ***** arena.


Furious, you owe me $5.