Author Topic: Gunsite shake & easy blackouts..  (Read 474 times)

fyterjock

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Gunsite shake & easy blackouts..
« on: November 17, 1999, 10:25:00 PM »
I am curious about the skitishness of the gunsites in AH.  I hope this is justa beta thing and will be updated as we go along.  Or if this is intentional, as all of the planes seem to have it, it is wrong.  It is not realistic, I have a video tape of gun camera footage from WWII from German and British and US sources and every time I look at it I wonder where this shaking idea comes from.  On the gun cam footage, remember this is a mounted camera and you'd think it'd be more likly to pick up vibration.  

Gunsite shake is not unique to AH but I really wonder where the idea came from..  Sure there is projectile dispersal and vibration of the guns can be felt through out a fireing aircraft but from what I have seen it doesn't throw your aim off that much.

In my oppinion, EAW or MS CFS is more realistic in this area, and hopefully it is realism we are going for here.  Seems to me there is no need to artificially complicate an already difficult task.

And then there is my other pet peeve, black outs.  As it happens I asked a former Spit and Hurri pilot I know the other day about this.  I asked him how easy was it to black out in hi G situations.  He said that, it depends a lot on the individual but the fact was that he NEVER went into a full blackout.

I know another former Spit & Hurricane & Typhoon pilot, he said he only blacked out once in his 3 yrs flying, that was when he was in a Spit, got going too fast and was going in to compression.  So he started working the trim for all he was worth and ended up coming out of it about 10,000 ft.

So my question.  Do we want realism or are the developers just trying to make it more challenging for us, to artificially "enhance" the game.  Warbirds is the same.  IMHO (again the blackout onset in EAW seems to be a reasonable compromise.

Well these have both been on my mind so there you go.  Here's hopeing we go the road towards REAL realism and not artificially enhanced realism.

Tally Ho

-kier-

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Gunsite shake & easy blackouts..
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 1999, 08:19:00 AM »
On the issue of gun shake, I don't believe you can base an entire opinion on gun camera footage. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence in print to indicate that firing weapons in some aircraft did indeed vibrate the craft (for instance, in one variant of the 109 the nose cannon was deleted for this very reason). Even in modern a/c, the cannons can have an impact on flight- the A10 can only fire short bursts from the cannon because (in part) of the thrust of the firepower slowing the craft down!

As for black-outs, this is pure physics, and well documented. If you pull too many G's, the blood leaves your brain and you sleep. That your acquaintance didn't often black-out is no indication that they couldn't, shouldn't, or wouldn't happen, only that he was never in a situation to make it happen.   We have many aerobatic pilots among our ranks here who are far better qualified to answer that point (I only flew Ultralights). Without a G suit on you wouldn't pull too may without some fuzziness. Next time you are up, watch the G meter when you get black... what does it read?

Offline Westy

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Gunsite shake & easy blackouts..
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 1999, 08:32:00 AM »

> I know another former Spit & Hurricane &
> Typhoon pilot, he said he only blacked out
> once in his 3 yrs flying,

 It's simple. He didn't yank and bank on a joystick like most people do.
 With a joystick you do not get the physical sensations one does in manuevers.
 But the blackouts and redouts occur when they should so you as a computer using, joystick flinging 'pile-it' need to become aware mentally of the limits and fly within those bounderies.
 Or become a Hurricane/Spitfire pilot yourself and then tell HT Creations, Imagic and Kesmai that they've been screwing us over all these years with smoke and mirrors.

--Westy

Offline SC-GreyBeard

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Gunsite shake & easy blackouts..
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 1999, 09:32:00 AM »
You can fine tune your joystick all day long, but if you're of the Yank and Bank persuasion, you'll see a lot of the black\red outs....

Go easy on your stick...
it'll save your arm, J/S, and your mental health....

and geez westy  lighten up on da guy a little...

 

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GreyBeard
Flight Commander, Aces High
Skeleton Crew

fyterjock

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Gunsite shake & easy blackouts..
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 1999, 02:58:00 PM »
Ok, was talking again today to one of my friends.  He said that tunnel vision and grey out were fairly common, but a complete black out was not.  Also that if you were not being persued all you had to do was push forward and very quickly you would regain your normal vision.  Sometimes in AH it seems to take forever to regain your vision if you are going fast, even when you do this manouver.

Do i think Kesmai et all "have been screwing us all these years"?  No I just think in there zeal to try to be realistic they overdid things.

Maybe I am a little hard on the stick here, but compared to what?  Why shouldn't the stick input be callibrated in the sim so that every tiny input doesn't result in black out.

FYI there is an article on Combatsim.com of a number of interviews with Viper pilots who talk about pulling 9 Gs routinely with very little problems.  Yes they wear G suits and grunt and are physicly fit, but the G suits are said to boost most pilots resistance to forces by only about 1 G.  Russians don't even bother with them!  The key apparently is conditioning and experiance, now wouldn't it be logical to give us ALL the benefit of the doubt, that we are conditioned as anybody.  

Email me if you want the URL to that article or just search Blackouts at www.combatsim.com.

The gunshake thing, I did say that yes the a/c does shake, no arguement there.  But like you say some aircraft have had to be modified because of too much vibration.  More than likely tho this was because the structure of the particular a/c was not designed to cope with it and would probably break the plane up.

And if it is the case that some shake relative to thier armament why do all the a/c in AH seem to shake to the same degree, 50 cals on the P51 the same as the Cannon and machine gun cmbo of the spit?  Well maybe that's because it's just beta...

But anyway, if I watch gun camera footage and detect little vibration and shake, then imagine what a pilot sees.  The pilot has a definate advantage over a camera, no matter how well it's mounted I suspect.  Your eyeballs and your neck and brain have the ability to "filter out" or adjust to those sorts of things in anything but the most extreme of cases.

Btw, these WWII a/c guns where not comparable to something like the 30mm gattleing gun on the A-10.  The rate and weight of fire between the two is WAY different.

Tally Ho

I really like this sim, IMHO it's the best there is and for the most part I love it, I just want to see the most truly realistic experiance possible. Short of actually dieing when I crash ;-)

[This message has been edited by fyterjock (edited 11-18-1999).]

Offline juzz

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Gunsite shake & easy blackouts..
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 1999, 11:05:00 PM »
F16 pilots practically lie down in the cockpit, add +1G resistance for that. WW2 pilots didn't have as much G training as F16 pilots. Add another +1G. G suit, add another +1G. Now, that brings the WW2 pilot down to +6G's resistance. In AH I see the G meter at +5G when the tunnel vision starts. Seems reasonable enough to me. I think we can still fly the plane even in full blackout, now that is absolutely wrong.

Btw, these WWII a/c are not comparable to something like the A-10, The weight of the two types is WAY different.  

fyterjock

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Gunsite shake & easy blackouts..
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 1999, 09:58:00 AM »
Ok, so these Vets pilots I talk to, that actually flew the A/C are wrong or lying, that's what you're telling me...?

...or maybe they seldom pulled that amount of G... possible.  I'll ask.

Also, conditioning results from experience, no they did not have as much training, true. But even the viper pilots say that the biggest factor is experiance and repetition fly on a daily basis and you stay in, or develop conditioning.  Go away on leave and you loose it fairly quickly.  I fly just about every night now so where does that leave me?

Off topic here:
The proposed subscription fee.  When or if they start charging $30 US a month to fly, I am gone, unfortunatly.  That would be for me about $50 CDN a month, sorry I may be a bit of an addict but I can't justify that.

Offline juzz

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Gunsite shake & easy blackouts..
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 1999, 11:02:00 AM »
Not at all. I'm sure they didn't pull lots of G's often, that stuff hurts I think? Especially negative G's, ouch!

From the nice booklet that came with Mig Alley, "THE F86 v THE Mig 15" by Sqn Ldr W. Harbison, Central Fighter Establishment(RAF).
Quote
F.86 pilots have returned to base after such encounters {a spiral dive evasive} so exhausted as to require a rest before being de-briefed, and with little or no recollection of the trip home. After about six tight turns at high"G" there comes a feeling of not caring and exhuastion. Mig pilots in similar circumstances have been seen to bale out without being badly hit.

See, to model G effects correctly you would have to rig yourself up to feed drugs to your brain so you get tired, bad judgement, etc...  

BTW, when do you think blackout should set in, if you were flying a WW2 fighter?

What I would really like to see is different planes giving different G tolerance, eg: Spit vs FW190.

Offline Stiglr

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Gunsite shake & easy blackouts..
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 1999, 11:43:00 AM »
I also feel the onset of blackout is too sudden in AH.

I have a Suncom Talon stick, which is fairly stiff. And, I do NOT jerk the stick about or flail; every maneuver I do is gradual, smooth and deliberate.

But, try as I might in AH, every time I do anything, the old "Graues Vorhang" [Grey Curtain] descends, and very very quickly. I know from personal experience (in a T6 trainer) that the onset of this is much more gradual when it does happen.

I almost never blackout in WB, but in AH, even trying a simple moderate turn seems to bring that old drowsiness back.

It's TOO MUCH as it stands now.

fyterjock

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Gunsite shake & easy blackouts..
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 1999, 05:01:00 PM »
Yes Stiglr,
That is basically the point I have been trying to make in my round about way    It is the sudden onset that is the problem.  BTW , to a previous poster, they didn't have G meters in WWII.

Had coffee with Mr Urquart (WWII Hurri & Spit driver) today asked some more about the balckout stuff.  He said in his case he didn't actually get in to very many dogfights , doing mostly air to ground work, and so he really didn't have any problems with blackouts at all.