Author Topic: 56th: Question about 47's (Read 607 times)

bustr · « **on:** July 02, 2003, 04:17:36 PM »

Guys do you have films that you can send me or give me a link to of flying P47's. I flew the D25 last night and started getting the idea. I got 8 kills, but someone always got me or the base ack got me low on the deck.

It's easy to dominate a fight with a 47, but because I don't have the technique I watched myself have to extend out of spot after spot where knowing how to fly the jug I would have gotten the shot.

Unlike with a Lavochka or a spit, the 47 quickly lets you see who's green and who to take on first. But it requires thinking ahead to setup the shots. The LA, spits and poni you can fudge a lot and make up for it with speed or manuverability. 47 requires really knowing that plane, which I don't.

-bustr-

RightF00T · « **Reply #1 on:** July 02, 2003, 05:02:47 PM »

Fly it some more and learn from trial and error. What we tell you or show you in film wont do much if you can't do it in actual play. Once you know the inside and the outside of your plane you can make it do things it was designed for even better and eliminite the worst aspects of it through superior vision.

If you know where that Spitfire is heading a simple roll to the direction he will be in 5 seconds can mean the end of that fight or it can place you in a position of advantage.

I'm sure anyone would be willing to set up a dueling session with you and I will try to find some films but I find Alt-R seems to start a countdown to tower for me.

hazed- · « **Reply #2 on:** July 02, 2003, 05:52:05 PM »

I have a book about allied aces which has a maneuver in it which was used by p47 pilots.

I'll type it out whats written but unfortunately i cant post the pic.

'Used to defeat a better turning adversary, the attacker,in this instance thunderbolt ace bob johnson, barrel rolled away from his opponents turn allowing him to cut inside and acheive a firing position.
P47 approaches from high 5 oclock...
The german pilot throttles back and pulls into a hard left turn.
Johnson rolls in the oppersite direction to the germans turn using the barrel roll to defeat the superior turning ability of the Me109.Johnson ends up on the tail of the 109 in a firing position'

this is a manouver i use in 190s too. As they start their turn they expect you to keep coming and try to match the turn.Instead you barrel roll in the opersite direction of their turn and come back onto them nose low, you then dive slightly under them as you build speed and you have a nice closing and rising firing position.If they continue the hard turn you may well still miss this shot and find yourself being outturned again but generally I find in the 190 its already too late for them when the cannons hits , even a few times.In the p47 you can find even with a good burst it sometimes doesnt have the hitting power you need.If this happens the prudent pilot would break off and extend and look for another advantage position.

HeLLcAt · « **Reply #3 on:** July 02, 2003, 05:58:09 PM »

how exactly do you do a barrel roll now?

bustr · « **Reply #4 on:** July 02, 2003, 06:07:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by RightF00T

If you know where that Spitfire is heading a simple roll to the direction he will be in 5 seconds can mean the end of that fight or it can place you in a position of advantage.

I've read about this many times, is this a simple role or a "barrel roll"? I did it by accident once in AW days and almost lost the kill because I was so surprised how well it worked. Could never do it again.

If it's a barrel roll, how do you actually do one?

-bustr-

rshubert · « **Reply #5 on:** July 02, 2003, 06:34:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by bustr
I've read about this many times, is this a simple role or a "barrel roll"? I did it by accident once in AW days and almost lost the kill because I was so surprised how well it worked. Could never do it again.

If it's a barrel roll, how do you actually do one?

-bustr-

stick back, nose up, rudder to keep ball centered and aileron to the stops. relax stick and rudder when on desired bearing. relax ailerons when at desired attitude.

The amount of control input required varies by plane type.

Manedew · « **Reply #6 on:** July 02, 2003, 07:11:45 PM »

basicly imagine a cylinder .. like a beer can ... a proper barrel roll flies around this cylinder trying to cut the forward movement without loseing E or nose postion. it's very hard to explain ... kind of similar to good sicciors, you treat your movement like your in a half-pipe useing your rudder (and airleions of course)to flip your nose around. the idea is that your angle is off from the pilot on your six but not too extreame .. you want to be able to settle on his 6 easy

i should point out most pilots who attempt this do it with too much forward movement.... you want to inhibit this forward movement a good deal .. but not too much

SunKing · « **Reply #7 on:** July 02, 2003, 07:25:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hazed-
I have a book about allied aces which has a maneuver in it which was used by p47 pilots.

I'll type it out whats written but unfortunately i cant post the pic.

'Used to defeat a better turning adversary, the attacker,in this instance thunderbolt ace bob johnson, barrel rolled away from his opponents turn allowing him to cut inside and acheive a firing position.
P47 approaches from high 5 oclock...
The german pilot throttles back and pulls into a hard left turn.
Johnson rolls in the oppersite direction to the germans turn using the barrel roll to defeat the superior turning ability of the Me109.Johnson ends up on the tail of the 109 in a firing position'

this is a manouver i use in 190s too. As they start their turn they expect you to keep coming and try to match the turn.Instead you barrel roll in the opersite direction of their turn and come back onto them nose low, you then dive slightly under them as you build speed and you have a nice closing and rising firing position.If they continue the hard turn you may well still miss this shot and find yourself being outturned again but generally I find in the 190 its already too late for them when the cannons hits , even a few times.In the p47 you can find even with a good burst it sometimes doesnt have the hitting power you need.If this happens the prudent pilot would break off and extend and look for another advantage position.

Can you post a AH film of this?

Tumor · « **Reply #8 on:** July 02, 2003, 08:21:43 PM »

I've got a quick question... why would the better turning aircraft turn hard left when being approached from the 5oclock?

This means the attacker merely needs to adjust somewhat left, where if the attackee turns hard right, the attacker has an increased radius to deal with to the right... right?

And as long as I've been doing this, I can't seem to grasp the idea of barrel rolling away from the turn direction of the other aircraft... I just don't get it.

RightF00T · « **Reply #9 on:** July 02, 2003, 08:53:29 PM »

Actually I'm not talking about a barrel roll. Picture a soup can. Now place 2 points fairly close to each other on the rim. The point behind the first point would perform a split-S while turning and basically fly across the diameter of the can and in theory end up on the six of the dot still going across the circumfrence of the rim of the can. YMMV

Tumor · « **Reply #10 on:** July 02, 2003, 10:02:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by RightF00T
Actually I'm not talking about a barrel roll. Picture a soup can. Now place 2 points fairly close to each other on the rim. The point behind the first point would perform a split-S while turning and basically fly across the diameter of the can and in theory end up on the six of the dot still going across the circumfrence of the rim of the can. YMMV

OHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhh.... hehe

Arlo · « **Reply #11 on:** July 03, 2003, 12:13:13 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by RightF00T
Actually I'm not talking about a barrel roll. Picture a soup can. Now place 2 points fairly close to each other on the rim. The point behind the first point would perform a split-S while turning and basically fly across the diameter of the can and in theory end up on the six of the dot still going across the circumfrence of the rim of the can. YMMV

Ahhh .... the low yo-yo.

Arlo · « **Reply #12 on:** July 03, 2003, 12:19:21 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by hazed-
I have a book about allied aces which has a maneuver in it which was used by p47 pilots.

I'll type it out whats written but unfortunately i cant post the pic.

'Used to defeat a better turning adversary, the attacker,in this instance thunderbolt ace bob johnson, barrel rolled away from his opponents turn allowing him to cut inside and acheive a firing position.
P47 approaches from high 5 oclock...
The german pilot throttles back and pulls into a hard left turn.
Johnson rolls in the oppersite direction to the germans turn using the barrel roll to defeat the superior turning ability of the Me109.Johnson ends up on the tail of the 109 in a firing position'

this is a manouver i use in 190s too. As they start their turn they expect you to keep coming and try to match the turn.Instead you barrel roll in the opersite direction of their turn and come back onto them nose low, you then dive slightly under them as you build speed and you have a nice closing and rising firing position.If they continue the hard turn you may well still miss this shot and find yourself being outturned again but generally I find in the 190 its already too late for them when the cannons hits , even a few times.In the p47 you can find even with a good burst it sometimes doesnt have the hitting power you need.If this happens the prudent pilot would break off and extend and look for another advantage position.

The Rollaway

A variation of the high-speed yo-yo, the rollaway involves rolling away from the target's turn as you invert. By diving and reversing direction with a 180º turn, you can drop in behind the defender's tail as he ends his break turn. The principals of this maneuver are otherwise the same as the high-speed yo-yo.

Cooley · « **Reply #13 on:** July 03, 2003, 01:08:25 AM »

Think also Known as a Lag Displacement roll, can be used well on defense too

Tumor · « **Reply #14 on:** July 03, 2003, 03:38:09 AM »

I'm useless in a Jug with that manuever. If I try this against your freindly neighborhood spitweeb.. the magic-rubber-band turns make the manuever entirely ineffective, unless ya wanna get ho'd. [yaright]it takes two to HO[/yaright] I've found the best way to spank a spit in this sit is take a 50/50 chance and point your nose bout 45 degree's either way off center of spit (and go a bit low if its a N1K, they ALWAYs break low, with spits its a guessing game). If ya miss, just go straight up and try the best you can at a hammerhead (considering it's dang near impossible in AH) and then hope your not dealing with a your other variation of magic spit I refer to as the HoverSpit, which will also get ya ho'd[yaright]it takes two to HO[/yaright]. Jug guns are good to have in any case.