Gunnery model adjustments and ammo types

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Arlo
Ya lost me there, bro. They don't fire simultaneously? They seem to on my end. Trigger plus thumb trigger = 6 .50s converging (hopefully) on target.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning here.

The .50 cals on the P-38L in AH, fire one at a time.  In real life when you fired the .50s, they would all fire when you pressed the trigger, not so in AH.  Take one up and just squeeze off one round and you'll see just one .50 fire off, not all of them like it's supposed to.


ack-ack

[ccvi]

Beeing able to fire a single round doesn't neccessarily mean that their effectiveness is reduced.

Let's say a singel .50 would over time fire...

x---x---x---x---x---

Each x standing for firing one bullet, each - for time in between.

So with 4, even if all 4 are firing, it could look like this

x---x---x---x---x---
-x---x---x---x---x--
--x---x---x---x---x-
---x---x---x---x---x

Probably still wrong, but no reduced lethality

Did you test how many bullets per second the p38 fires compared to another aircraft that can fire 4 .50s at the same time (e.g. 2nd bank on p51)?

[Ack-Ack]

Since there aren't any real convergence issues with the P-38, with all four .50 calibers firing at the same time, it hit like a shotgun blast.  
Four .50 calibers firing simultaneously at a target is going to do much more damage at the point of impact than four .50 calibers firing in succession.


Ack-Ack

[Vermillion]

Ack Ack, there is no way that the guns in a real life P-38 fired the way you describe them too.  Very slight mechanical differences in the firing mechanisms would in just half a second "un-synch" the fire of the guns to be what we have now.

Spring strengths (recoil operating guns), powder differences, primer burn rates, etc., to just name a few,  all play a role of when each gun and then each shell fires.  Now multiply this by four guns, and over ten rounds per second.

Do you really think that all 4 guns are firing at the same time? (or even within a tenth of a second of each other).

[ccvi]

What makes you think 4 bullets hitting at the same time do more damage than 4 bullets hitting after each other?

Did anyone measure round per second of all 4 guns combined and compared to 4 guns on another aircraft?

[Eagler]

Originally posted by ccvi
What makes you think 4 bullets hitting at the same time do more damage than 4 bullets hitting after each other?

Did anyone measure round per second of all 4 guns combined and compared to 4 guns on another aircraft?

in the time it took for those four rounds to follow one another to the target - 16 rounds could have hit it

then again your ammo would go 4x as quick

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Vermillion
Ack Ack, there is no way that the guns in a real life P-38 fired the way you describe them too.  Very slight mechanical differences in the firing mechanisms would in just half a second "un-synch" the fire of the guns to be what we have now.

Spring strengths (recoil operating guns), powder differences, primer burn rates, etc., to just name a few,  all play a role of when each gun and then each shell fires.  Now multiply this by four guns, and over ten rounds per second.

Do you really think that all 4 guns are firing at the same time? (or even within a tenth of a second of each other).

But they did fire that way, all four guns fired when you pressed the trigger on the yoke.  That's not how it is currently in AH.  In AH, each gun fires once, in some sort of order, until all guns have been fired and then the cycle repeats, albeit at a high rate of fire.  It might not seem all that significant but that does cut down on the hitting power of the P-38, which in real life carried a very lethal gun package, even after the 20mm Hispano rounds were depleted.


Ack-Ack

[Tilt]

Are we talking about  4 x .5" each firing at 850 rpm? ie over 14 rounds /sec / gun.

Are you suggesting that HTC has de rated the guns such that they only fire at 3.5 rounds / sec? (I assume not) or are you really concerned that they do not model synchronous fire?

How can you rely upon AH graphics to detect if the guns are firing syncronously or asynchronously when the frequency per round is a forteenth of a second?

This debate seems to be concerned with two extremes being

a)4 rounds perfectly synchronised every 0.07secs

or

b)individual rounds leaving every 0.017 secs.


I would be amazed if our FE's tracked individual bullets (I could be wrong it just seems wastefull of processing time).

There would be a trajectory model

There would be a lethality rate.

There would be a time on target.

There would be a graphic (tracer but not every bullet)

There would be a sound file.

There would be a usage rate.

In essence I would suggest that what you are really questioning is the lethality model......... because there is no way you can tell if these guns are synchronous or asynchronous from the rest.


edit ps by synchronous I mean with each other

[Ack-Ack]

I'm not saying HiTech did anything with the guns at all.  All I'm saying is that the way the machine guns fire on the P-38 in AH is not how they fired in real life.  Does it impact the lethality of the plane?  Those that casually fly the P-38 might not think so but those of us that fly it exclusively are of a different opinion.  


Ack-Ack

[Straiga]

With all the gun postions that a Bomber has would it be possible to have more than one gunner on board, like for all the gun positions.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
All I'm saying is that the way the machine guns fire on the P-38 in AH is not how they fired in real life.  

How can you tell?

I do not see how it could  be tested? (other than a basic lethality comparison)

Obviously HTC knows the lethality rate of their P38's combined 50's, only they would know if it is greater than 4 times a single 50 as you suggest it should be.

_____________________



Taking it a step further I would be interested in TW's opinion on the ballistics of the quad hit as opposed to the sequential hit.

I remember many a debate from those espousing the benefits of multiple 50's whereby, it was argued, that the combined rate of fire of multiple 50's more than compensated for lower round energy  (compared to fewer but heavier cannon) because of a greater hit rate on a moving target.

It would seem that synchronous firing would negate this advantage as the rate of fire is now equivilent to one mg although of course the calibre is more equivilent to four.

[ccvi]

When WB3 switched from modeling multiple bullets as one to modelling every single bullet lethality was said to be increased for guns... (haven't been there when that change was introduced, just read it on their forum, at least if I remember correctly).

[bfreek]

All i want is 2 50 cals off an m3 on my p51.

[MOIL]

Just give me my Whirblewind {German Whirlwind} and I'll leave ya all alone  

[Karnak]

Ack Ack is correct in that they fire one at a time in AH, however the difference in lethality, if any, would be way, way too slight to notice.

The only aircraft the guns being synced or unsynced matters is the Hurricane Mk IId, Il-2 and the Ju87G-2 (when we get it).