Author Topic: Gunnery model adjustments and ammo types  (Read 1406 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Gunnery model adjustments and ammo types
« on: July 05, 2003, 01:07:01 AM »
Are there going to be any changes to the gunnery model or firing rates to any of the planes?

Like for instance, the P-38L.  Currently when you fire the machine guns, only one gun fires at a time but in real life all four machine guns fired simultaneously, coupled with the single 20mm Hispano, gave the P-38 a high lethality rate.  Will the P-38 have the correct firing rate in AH2?

And another question, will AH2 also model the various types of ammunition used?  I seem to recall reading that US planes used a mixed belt of AP and HE rounds (think the RAF did the same) while the German planes used a hybrid AP/HE round.  Will we get this option too in AH2?


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Offline BenDover

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Gunnery model adjustments and ammo types
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2003, 01:10:17 PM »
The Hurri D's 40mms could do with this fix aswell.

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2003, 01:49:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BenDover
The Hurri D's 40mms could do with this fix aswell.


Id have to agree this could do with some adjustments I think.

Whether i could claim i thought it was incorrectly modeled im not so sure but i must say i have seen a film clip of the hurricane d using that 40mm. Very slow rate of fire like ours but when those bullets hit the tank it looked as though it was doing a hell of a lot of damage. BUT whether that tank was actually hurt in RL or it just looks like that I cant say, never saw the tank afterward! :)

AH could be spot on I dont know. All id say is in AH the Hurri D is really no better it seems to me than the 20mm hurri for killing GV's and its incredibly hard to hit with those 40mm. In the war I thought the 40mm hurricanes were very successful but again was it success against tanks or soft vehicles, If the enemy is stopped its deemed a successful attack but we will never know if they actually destroyed a tank or stranded it without its supply columns.Myths build up and history gets very distorted.

I would for once in AH agree to a slightly unrealistic increase in the 40mm's penetrating/tank destroying ability for gameplays sake.
Personally I feel the hurricane D is a hard aircraft to survive an attack with against AA vehicles and its so poor in performance it is rarely a big danger to anyone attacking it. It basically doesnt kill vehicles very well and the 40mm at the moment doesnt seem to be a good tank killer.Why not give the hurri D a bit of a role to play in AH? make it so a good 40mm hit does hurt vehicles. Nothing over the top just as long as they are a little more effective than they are now and it makes using them desirable.
Maybe in WW2 they(hurrD) werent very good either but in AH which is a game and as it cant cover every aspect of warfare it would be good to have it be usefull .Theres no troops or soft vehiicles for us to attack so players in tanks is what we have.  increase 40mm's AP slightly just to see it used more if nothing else?.Then again maybe it isnt modeled quite right ? hard to tell.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2003, 01:55:45 PM by hazed- »

Offline ccvi

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Gunnery model adjustments and ammo types
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2003, 02:16:02 PM »
Isn't the real problem with the hurri's 40mm that it is firing them alternating left-right that causes a yaw moment bad for aiming, instead of both cannons at the same time?

The 110 with 2 30mm cannons has 255 rounds 30mm total, does one gun actually have 1 round more than the other?

Offline Tilt

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Re: Gunnery model adjustments and ammo types
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2003, 06:56:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Are there going to be any changes to the gunnery model
 


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Offline Ack-Ack

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Gunnery model adjustments and ammo types
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2003, 08:28:54 PM »
That would actually be a cool thing to add, even though it's only an eye candy sort of thing.  Each plane would get whatever tracer color that particular plane's country.


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Offline Kweassa

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Gunnery model adjustments and ammo types
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2003, 03:20:32 AM »
All very nice suggestions.

 To that I'd like to add that I would like to see the effects of the massive amounts of gunfire effecting a plane's flight condition. I'm pretty aware it's not too pleasing to time and time again mention a "brand X" contendor for comparing things :D, but in this case, the IL-2 series is probably the most serious contendor in these aspects as they also depict WW2 aircraft combat(tho' not necessarily a contendor as a MMOG I admit..!).

 What I mean to say is, in IL2/FB, the effects of gunfire are really very pronounced - firing two machine guns, feel very different from firing four. The pure force off many guns firing at once, ever slightly effects the planes in a manner such as the nose pitch of the plane tucks under a bit. When some plane has wing armament, and one or two on one side is damaged, the unbalance of the recoil force makes the yaw axis shake.

 I've felt some of these phenomena in AH too, but not as much as to make a real difference. The only case where something like this really effects a plane, is the Hurri2D, where a mistake in the firing sequence shakes the plane's yaw axis tremendously. In the case where I was flying a wing-armed plane like the 190A-8, or maybe Mustangs or Corsairs, I've often had entire amount of guns on one side of the wing knocked out, with only the other side operational. No problem in aiming, the only thing that bothers us is the reduced  firepower.

 In IL2/FB, when even if one cannon on a HurricaneIIC is jammed due to damage, those accurate Hispanos suddenly become very very hard to aim! Yaw axis shakes, and shakes hard!

 I'm curious as to what others think about this. Maybe IL2/FB, like many other things, have exaggerated those features too much? Or, regardless of that, is AH too 'weak' in this aspect?

 If all five guns entirely concentrated on the nose of the P-38 fires at once, just how much should that effect the plane's flight characteristic?

 ...

Offline Kweassa

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Gunnery model adjustments and ammo types
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2003, 03:23:44 AM »
Also, I am very well aware that the Hispano MkII and MkV cannons were probably the most efficient and powerful 20mm cannons in that era, but I recall reading some posts that the specific ammo types weren't represented.

 I was always looking for a chance to confirm if this was true. Some people had ideas that this may account for its incredibly superb power in AH. All the different types of ammo mixed in the belt, is mixed into a single round in AH <- this is what I've heard.

 So, just how exactly is the ammo types represented in AH??

 Any opinions are welcome! Please enlighten me! :)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Gunnery model adjustments and ammo types
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2003, 03:42:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa

 In IL2/FB, when even if one cannon on a HurricaneIIC is jammed due to damage, those accurate Hispanos suddenly become very very hard to aim! Yaw axis shakes, and shakes hard!

 
 ...



That's one of the pissers about the P-38 in AH.  In real life the four nose mounted .50 cals and single 20mm Hispano cannon gave the P-38 an extremely lethal gun package.  But in AH since the machine guns don't fire simultaneously like they did in real life, the lethality has been significantly decreased.


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Offline Rutilant

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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2003, 04:54:07 AM »
(Slightly off topic) Seems to me the lethality of those hispanos is even worse(better?) offline, 2-3 bullets will knock a drone's whole wing off. Then again smaller caliber fire seems more effective as well.. C.202's 2 12mm offline seem as lethal as 4 50cal online.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2003, 09:22:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
But in AH since the machine guns don't fire simultaneously like they did in real life, the lethality has been significantly decreased.


Ya lost me there, bro. They don't fire simultaneously? They seem to on my end. Trigger plus thumb trigger = 6 .50s converging (hopefully) on target.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning here.

Offline BenDover

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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2003, 10:38:13 AM »
he's talking about the 50 cals, leave the cannon out of this

Offline Furball

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« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2003, 12:21:43 PM »
i would like to see tracers added (optional of course) to the end of aircraft's ammo load, and remove ammo counters from the aircraft that didn't have them.  I would also like to see Hurri IID's guns fixed.  They didnt call it 'The Tin Opener' and 'Tank Buster' for nothing :)
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Offline hazed-

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Gunnery model adjustments and ammo types
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2003, 01:50:49 PM »
Are you sure they arent all firing together? you cant use the sound file to listen to it because that isnt an accurate representaion of the gun firing.
When you press the trigger of a single mg it plays your sound sample.It doesnt necessarily match exactly to the bullets does it?

It also has been set up so when 2 mgs fire the program plays the sounds at a slightly different point so as to create that stereo affact.Im not sure about this but id susect its something like this so you as a player hears 2 distinct gun sounds rather than both at the same time cancelling each other out.

You really need HTC to tell you if when you fire a package of guns do they start to fire bullets at the same time or are they staggered somehow.

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2003, 02:07:17 PM »
Hazed, it wouldn't be difficult to test.  The guns on the P-38 fire individually, not collectively.  Just give the MG button a tap, and you'll see you fired 1 round.  If all 4 guns fired at the same time, even a little tap would fire 4 rounds, since all the .50s would fire once.

As far as the ammunition loadout goes, I'd like the ability to change loadouts.  Yea, this is a luftwhine, sue me.  The german 20mm AP rounds and HE rounds completely sucked, but the Mine round was as good as a Hispano 20mm round, according to Tony Williams anyway.  The reason the Hispanos hit twice as hard as the Mg151 in this game is either the Mine round is not modelled at all, or it is modelled as 2 parts crap AP round, 2 parts crap HE round, 1 part Mine round.