So why not an HA?

[lazs]

"plethora of situations possible in a Historical environment"   LOL! what plethora?  when I was there it pretty much boiled down to only fighting one or two different planes if you were allied and about the same if you were axis and the "plethora" of combinations you could get outta that but...   If you had the same four planes without allied vs axis then you really would have a "plethora of situations".   do the math.  I dunno, what is it? like sixteen times as many possible combinations of fites?

I admit that it really is "to each his own" and maybe things have settled in and we have have those who want allied vs axis staying in WB and those hating it staying in AH with a few defectors either way as boredom sets in for some and... As I said, let's have an "Historical Arena" in AH.   Got nothing against it but it will simply do well for a couple of weeks and then be totally ded.   When the WWII arena dies in WB people do go to the HA because any that would have enjoyed the MA are long gone from WB by now I would think.  What i don't understand is why anyone who likes allied vs axis would even bother with AH when WB does it so well allready?

I really would like those who like scenarios and allied vs axis only to have a seperate arena in AH tho.   I simply feel that it will not attract that many AH players who are willing to take a chance on supporting a new arena.

gadfly, u believe that historical is more important than realistic.  I believe the oppossite.   I have plenty of very accurate and inteteresting WWII history right on my bookshelves and enjoy those books immensly but.. The blasphemy of calling an arena "historical" pretty much offends me after seeing what passes for "historical"   History for me is in the machines as well.   If the machines and the structures and everything in the sim is not as realistic as it can be then it is nothing.   Certainly,it is not a "sim".

In my opinion "HA's" simulate nothing.  
lazs

[flakbait]

....{insert all above posts here}....


Or you could just get the guy who did the Dueling Map to modify it. Create a map 1024x1024 in size and split the sucker in half with a giant wall. The it's a simple matter of making one half the Dueling section, and the other half a Historical section. I can't believe no one thought of this before; sounds simple enough to me.


-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
 

[Gadfly]

The real question is:

Are we simulating air combat using WWII airframes, or are we simulating WWII air combat.

I like to do the latter, and this is what I meant by plethora.  Not plane A vs B, in all combinations, but the different situations that are possible using Historical setups.

In other words, instead of spit vs spit, I prefer Spit's and Hurri's vs Ju88's and 109s in a setup that allows us to simulate the BOB.

Sure we are limited in what is available, but the only real limit is your mind.  Like your Mommy always told you, "Use your imagination".

That is a sure fire way to keep from getting bored, and if it is too much of a stretch, well, no worries, Bro, thank Cod we have all kinds of choices.

edit-Also I like to jump in my Zero and furball from a capped field, dying and killing in double-fast time, but if that was all there was, I would have quit after 3 months, as opposed to 3 years so far.

[This message has been edited by Gadfly (edited 05-11-2001).]

[Ram1]

Well guys take it from me, if you have multiple arenas including a MA or WW2 arena two sided arena, an HA only works when you organize an event for it.

We've been working this set up for over 2 years now, and the only time we really draw significant numbers is when we run some type of organized event or the WW2 arena goes down.

People flock to where the numbers are unless some organized event is going on with multiple squads.

Lazs is right. However, the elite do fly in the HA  

Ram1

[lazs]

ggadfly.. don't read any books on the BOB or you will see that HA's simulate nothing but perhaps a microcosm of what may have happened  in the real BOB (or any other real event in air combat)..  The extremely slim chance that you may engage in an historical dogfite by limiting the planeset is a huge price to pay for said limitations.   Use your imagination... I have allways wondered how the WWII aircraft that I like so much would do against each other.   In reality, very few conflicts happened where that could be seen... The'69 soccer war, the dessert thing and early vietnam but.... Every swingin dick pilot had "combat" with other allied planes every chance he got in WWII... The only difference is that we get to fire our guns and they didn't.  

Imagination?   I would much rather imagine a 1940's scenario where a lot of nations all had access to each others best planes and then ended up at war.  Better that than the blasphemy and boredom of an HA..  I submit that those who would be so structured as to enjoy an HA are distinctly LACKING in imagination.

ram... I believe that yes... people do consider themselves "elite" when they limit themselves so badly.  Personally... I have allways had a better K/D in HA's than in the real arenas since the HA aficianados have usually substituted patience for skill and do poorly against even mediocre furballers like myself.

[MrSiD]

Blasphemy and boredom translated to common language: Being forced to fly something more demanding than the most uber uber plane available at the moment.

All this opposition to HA is completely ridiculous. Introduction of HA parallel to the old Main arena will still leave the option to choose which one to fly in. If HA is really such a boring and blasphemous place like you say it is, nobody will go there.. My guess is however, that it will have a steady group of players who want an alternative to the main arena.

HA does not have to be boring flight seeking combat for hours. Instead it can be axis vs allied furball and strat for those of us who prefer that instead of flying n1k vs n1k or chog vs chog.

RPS forces people to TRY OUT NEW kinds of aircraft. Is that really such a horrible thing? Sticking to one single format is just narrow minded.

One of the most common things I hear is that people complain about not being able to choose the exact type of aircraft they fly. They couldn't do that in real life either. I bet that those same persons leave the scenarios in disgust because they have to follow the commands of the superiors (oh the horror.) What they want is air quake.

The most fun I've had ever in flight sim was in BOB scenario, controlled by radar operator and CM, taking off flight by flight in formation and intercepting the enemy.

Too bad it was only 2am my local time and it ended up to two mass dumps effectively ruining the whole scenario for all. Well, that was in that *other* game..

[Hooligan]

MrSid wrote:

"RPS forces people to TRY OUT NEW kinds of aircraft. Is that really such a horrible thing?"

Well I guess that depends.  In WB the RPS cost them a lot of paying customers.  From the company perspective that was horrible.  The arena population shrank noticeably, I certainly thought that was horrible.  Personally I liked the RPS, but even though I did I have to admit that it was in fact a horrible thing for the game and for the company's revenues.

The idea that a company can force paying customers to play a certain way is terribly flawed.  Oddly, people don't like to take their disposable income and precious free time to play the way somebody else wants them to.  Coercion does not work.  A bribery system (i.e. here is your reward for playing this way) has a lot more promise.

Hopefully someday HTC can get enough customers to fill 5 arenas full time.  Then I can have my RPS and somebody else can have their HA and we will all be a bit happier.

Hooligan

[MrSiD]

Hooligan, you read only 1 part of my post.

You missed this part: Introduction of HA parallel to the old Main arena will still leave the option to choose which one to fly in.

[jedi]

I think the idea that these various systems (RPS, HA, scenarios) "cost them paying customers" is somewhat faulty logic.  The assumption is always that because someone (usually the poster)   left the sim due to dissatisfaction, that therefore "many" customers left due to that same thing.  

But that's only HALF the story, isn't it?  What about all the customers who STAYED BECAUSE of the introduction of the RPS, or HA, or whatever?  No one knows how many customers would have grown bored with the old MA system and left if the RPS or HA had not been introduced.  There are certainly MANY folks who stick around at WB ONLY for the Scenario Lites and S3 (300 online routinely for an S3) events.  I only know that I was pretty fed up with the MA, and the fact that it's still the basic setup over here is not a selling point for me.

I think about all you can say is that the so-called "hard core" sim community is now pretty well split into "war re-enacters" at WB and "gladiator pilots" (no slight intended)   at AH.  To be sure, there are a FEW re-enactors at AH and a few gladiators at WB, and a few who are driven mainly by cost, but IMO the players have pretty much migrated into the sim that gives them the "gameplay style" that they prefer.  The guys still at WB don't CARE that they face a 109 every day in their Spitfire.  If they want to face a Spitfire, they'll fly the 109!  The guys in AH don't CARE that there's no Hurricane, because they want to see who the best Dora pilot is.  Or to see if they can defeat a Dora in a N1K.

Sort of sad and good at the same time.  Nice that we all have someplace to go, but sad that the two sims are now essentially reduced to fighting over the same small group of players for revenue, using basically the same reactionary ideas in hopes of raiding the other guy's customer base.  Will HTC create an HA to hold on to the "re-enacters," or risk losing them to iEN's WB3 "strat system?"  Will iEN add halftracks and tanks (Oops, they already did...sorta) to show they're not "stagnating," or risk losing customers to HTC's "new toys every month" development pace?

And will either of them actually think outside the box and do something NEW, or will they just wait to be "scooped" by WW2OL, diluting the hard core sim community even further???

--jedi

[Dmitry]

lol....
And silly me I thought HA stands for HIGH Aces, something like "high school high"  

only when I digged in the truth has been reviled  

------------------
Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty

[Fokker]

The experience from WB is very relevant to this discussion. After many years of experimenting 2 arenas has developed which both have players at all times.

The Combat Arena for lazs and his likes, and the WW2 Arena for those who like more realism and an historic matchup of planes.

A similar setup of arenas should be done in AH. The HA scenarios has the problem of timezones and need to play at set times. A HA arena available at all times would get a good crew, I am sure of that.

AH have enough players and planes to support such an arena setup. Just try it and see how goes.

[lazs]

fokker.. i don't believe that WB has an MA that is viable anymore.  i believe it has an "air combat" arena that has the realism reduced... extra ammo ez flight etc.. not what I would want at all.  It looks to me as tho AH pilots would not go to an HA if the current MA was still open.   We even have lower scenario turnousts in AH but...

I don't care if they run an HA alongside the MA but I think the MA is where the numbers in AH will be.  I also think that the MA can be improved.  Even tho it has more choice right now than any HA, it could have even more by having early, mid and late "areas" within the arena and thereby giving us a choice to fly those "hurricanes" and such and eliminate the idiotic and unfair perk system as an added bonus.

It boils down to the fact that some are willing to be limited and restricted by an "historical" plane set and others find it boring.   I think that with two sims catering to each camp, the players have pretty much made their choice....I find any attempt at recreating "historical" WWII air combat blasphemous and a little silly with the current state of the art in sim tech.     Scenarios can come a little closer because they give the military minded a chance to be ordered around.  Take our radar for instance... some would like it removed in the MA and instead we would rely on "controllers" LOL!   Who would take that job?   Even P51,D9 and buff pilots have too low a boredom threshold to be "controllers"..
lazs