Otto

[smash]

Not to start a flame war... though it's probably unavoidable.  But I am curious as to what other people think.

I enjoy buffing as much - or more - than flying fighters.  But having the gunners go to sleep in the bomb run, and having the left waist go to sleep while the right waist is firing is a bit silly to me.  And totally unrealistic.

That combined with 1 ping on me when I am in the tail gunner posit and poof I'm in the tower has really frustrated me to the point that I am not flying the 17 right now.

Just my opinion.

[Fishu]

1 ping? might been lag or lucky hit into butt
But it aint easy for fighters either, those guns feels too powerful  

Just watching those videos with tens of B-17s in formation and fighters surviving through fire storm without 600mph speed and weird angles, is something unbelievable to survive in AH though.
Comes more to think about it when single B-17 was said to be easy target for fighters, but in AH its alot more than easy without real poor gunner or much speed and 100% correct approach.

[Sorrow[S=A]]

The key seems to be speed. I took out Rexx in one today, if your moving over top of 300mph IAS it seems that gunners have a 100% harder time killing you.
   Also note: rudder helps alot, slewing approaches throw off their aim and allow you to hit from odd angled runs.

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If your in range, so is the enemy.

[smash]

Yeah... he's in range but not getting fired on... it's a one man ship during the run.

just a bit unrealistic is all...

[Minotaur]

I usually have to hit the 17 alot to knock it down.  

Might be a network thing, I have 1 ping or no ping killed in a fighter.

Mino

[Gazoo]

The thing I have noticed when on is that none of the buff pilots want gunners.

I make a regular call to gun.  Especially after a long intense fight.  On occasion I get a ride, but for the most part, I see b17 after b17 take off with nary a word.

I have also heard many other pilots offer their gunning skills, without response.  So buffers speak up.  Remeber, we can join u in flight!

PS.  I am not a bad gunner.  I have not made a trip yet with out at least 1 kill.


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"Just Plane Nuts"
Gazoo
 http://plaza.v-wave.com/SolarStorm/index.htm

[214CaveJ]

speaking as a buff driver, I think for the most part we prefer to man our own guns and have someone grab another 17 and form up on our wing.  I'd personally rather have 4 single-crewed 17s in a tight box than 2 17s w/ gunners flying side by side.  Saftey in numbers and all that ya know =)

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Air power is a thunderbolt launched from an egg shell invisibly tethered to a base.         -  Hoffman Nickerson

[SC-GreyBeard]

As another buff driver I too have found it much easier to man my own guns. Don't know why, but from practice, seems ride along gunners see some things totally differant from what I see when I gun my own.
I also dislike the rudder will respond to gunner movement since I use a MS precision Pro "sidewinder"....
Have run rudder damp to full, both in the game and in the stick software,, and still rudders much to sensitive. (throws off my gunnery really bad.)
(just one of my pet peeves)

The other complaint I have is nuthing worse than jumping from either rear to front or top to bottom, and finding the damn gun pointing wrong direction by 180 degrees.... I think ALL guns should track nearest target. (if not under direct bearing control.)
ie: if target coming up from under, then as it clears the plane of the plane the upper guns should be bearing already.




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GreyBeard
Flight Commander, Aces High
Skeleton Crew

[-raxx-]

Adding my two cents...

Otto being too good?  Thanx for the compliment!  I try to ping at 1100 yards and kill the con before they get inside 600 yards.  While I'm not an expert on ballistics I've had some practice with Light and Heavy machine guns and the ballistics are pretty damn close IMHO.

1 Ping kills?  Has to be net lag or a pilot kill.  I'm yet to die from a one ping kill while flying a buff.

Sorrow's point on speed is a factor as well as range, (fire at about 400-100yards).  I fly fighters about as much as buffs and get regular kills on buff pilots who don't know how to lead properly from a gunner position.  I also find the angle of attack counts for a lot as well.  Head on and 10-2 attacks are my mainstay against buffs because the offset for the buff gunner is so tricky.  I also try to attack through 3 axis so the gunner has to change position once or twice to get a shot at me, as I pass by.

From a gunners point of view I get most of my kills of fighters either because they drag up on my low slow 6 or screw up the entry for the first attack and end up sucking lead in through their teeth as the blow by my tail at 600mph.  The hardest kills are cons with speed and altitude attacking from the front quarters because they move to fast too track with the guns.

Gazoo mentioned buff pilots not taking gunners.  Don't take offence gazoo coz I'm sure you're a great gunner, but I'll never have a gunner in my plane.  The reason:  There's no-one else to blame if I get shot down!  Paraphrasing 214CaveJ, I'd rather have another B17 beside me than a gunner behind me.

As for killing buff's I try to rake the plane from nose to tail with cannon fire, (the 190 is exceptional at this and with a pair of 30mm cannon on the wings it never takes more than one 1/2 sec burst on a single pass to finish the job).  If the plane only has a pair of 20mm cannon or just heavy machine guns then I aim for the engines and wing root with the intention of crippling the plane and making it impossible to fly.

As a small aside: has anyone other than me managed to shoot down another B17 with a B17?  It was as funny as a fart in an elevator on Sunday afternoon when a Knight B17 "bounced" me and with their single ball turret gun took on my top, tail and left waist gun.  You guess the result =)

Spotcha in the Air

[214CaveJ]

I've taken down another 17 with a 17.  I dinnae remember who I was riding with, but we were rtb after dropping on a target and there was this bishcuit 17 in front of us and a little lower.  So he dove a little bit, got me in range, and I opened up.  down they went =)

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Air power is a thunderbolt launched from an egg shell invisibly tethered to a base.         -  Hoffman Nickerson

[Minotaur]

LOL;

Sounds like a cool idea for a Scenerio.

B-17 vs B-17 Deathmatch, last plane flying wins.  Can't you just picture the tracers (or frame rate) with 15 B-17's circling in a furball.

Mino

[Thunder]

Gazoo,

I fly buffs a lot and any time I'm in the arena and you want to gun, give me a shout.
I've found that alot of gunners are not interested in a long flight. It is good to see someone who wants to gun. This is very useful especially when the enemy is attacking as you are on the sights. Also, with multiple attackers from different altitudes and sides, working together with a good gunner that understands is a plus. Your welcome on my ship anytime!

Salute,

Thunder

 
                         

[Azrael]

Gazoo, you know that you volunteer for a long ride with some pilots? If I make a run in less than 60 minutes it was a front line field  

Mino: Hehe, sounds like fun to me.

Az

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Azrael
XO 487th BG (Heavy)
'The Gentlemen from Hell'

[Nash]

I'm by no means a buff expert, far from it. Thought I'd share a tip though that seems to be working for me in defending it against a single fighter.

90% of the time the fighter attacks from my six (not smart imho). What I've been doing is, when the fighter is at d20, I'll go into a  shallow dive to get my speed up. When the fighter gets to d13 I'll head back to man the  guns, leveling the plane out. What this does is to increase the amount of time it takes for the nme plane to close - the speed difference of your two planes is much smaller. You now have a much greater window to get hits on him while he is still out of guns range of your 17.

Y'all are prolly doing that already anyways, or have a better method. I dunno. But I just started doing that a few days ago and it works quite well. Against an experienced buff killer, I figure ya can forget this little tidbit. They come in *fast* from high or low. However, when ya do see one inching up slowly on yer six, you can feel pretty safe.

[Gazoo]

I do realize that sometimes it is a long climb to the target for 20 seconds of glory.  But I love gunning esp. when in a formation of 2 or more buffs.  I have been on a couple of raids where there were 2 b17's and 2 gunners.  We could not be touched.  The pilots kept WELL inside of d1 and well us gunners just had to shoot.  That is a LOT of fire power in AH if the pilots can hold formation while under attack.  This was a blast!

So for those of you buff drivers, give a shout when you want a gunner.  If I can, I will join.

Also, buff drivers, we can join in flight in AH so a few min before you are turning IP and starting to concentrate on you run, call for a gunner.  Someone can watch the guns for the bomb run while you are defenseless.

Personally I like the climb out.  There is usually a lot of conversation that goes on.  if your not into conversation, well I like to gun a run or two to relax and going along for the ride is ok.

Well for those of you that want to man your own guns <S>.  I address those that cry for otto on their bomb run, or some other sort of otto solution.  AI has no place in an online sim.



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"Just Plane Nuts"
Gazoo
 http://plaza.v-wave.com/SolarStorm/index.htm