Hispano 20mm, too powerful?

[Fishu]

Now when I did turn back from 109, 190, P51, which ive more recently flown than spitfire, I came to note its brutal(?) firepower from its two 20mm guns.
I didnt need more than couple hits into C-47s tail and all stabs flew off, shot few more, hit tail, boom, no more C-47.
Caught 190, he did not seem to see me while was climbing, i shot him from 400-300 yards, it did lose wings, seemed like stabs too and blew up also, I didnt hit much this time either, alot less than average shots need from my other planes.
Then I did go for little B-17 hunt, made little bursts into both wings and took apart its both wings and think it blew up too Though, it was shot some by other guy, but looked still to be quite intact and straight flying, he got kill too, lets make this diassembly of b-17 doubtful.

So, am I just lucky or did I somehow increase my gunnery  
(I sure hope it was that last one..)

Any more opinions about Spitfried.. err Spitfire hispanos?

[leonid]

Fishu,
Do you know anything about the cannon specs for the Hispano, and other 20mm types?  From your post, it's possible you may not.  Here are some for you to peruse through:

Mass of Cannon
Hispano: 45kg
ShVAK: 42kg
MG-151: 42kg

Mass of Round
Hispano: 130g
ShVAK: 96g
MG-151: 90g

Cyclic Rate of Fire
Hispano: 800rds/min
ShVAK: 800rds/min
MG-151: 700rds/min

Initial Muzzle Velocity
Hispano: 860m/s
ShVAK: 800m/s
MG-151: 780m/s

Volley/Burst Mass
Hispano: 1.74kg/s
ShVAK: 1.28kg/s
MG-151: 1.05kg/s

[The MG-151 round in question is the fighter combat version, not the version used against bombers]

As you can see, the Hispano was an awesome weapon.


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129 IAP VVS RKKA

[jmccaul]

There is nothing wrong with questioning a planes performance it's just that "I flew it a bit and it seemed to be a bit fast with the guns a bit to powerfull" is not that usefull, facts about performance would have more impact. Of course you can talk about that sort of thing when saying why you like a plane but it isn't sufficent for FM changes.

[Ogre]

Hiya Leonid,

I believe that the 130g round you site for the Hispano was the semi-armour piercing round.  Some research I've done indicated that the Hispano explosive round had significantly less mass.

Based on a study I made in the Summer, my study indicated that the MG131 and Hispano were about on the same par with regard to damage *potential* when including the typical AP/HE mix carried on the ammo belt (Hispano slightly better).  However, depending on the round type used in the MG151, the ballistic profile could differ conciderably.  When I generated an energy curve as a function of distance, it seemed that the Hispano was superior in the short ranges, then the MG151 in the latter (I think the two profiles crossed at about 400 yards, have to find that data again so don't quote me).

I hate when I quote this stuff without a reference for everyone to visit, but I thought it might still be relevent.  I'm going to try and get my study on my gunnery web page soon ( http://www.cris.com/~reaper ).  Until then, everyone can take what I've said above with a grain of salt  

P.S.  Leonid, do you have any specific data on the Shvak?  Different round types, explosive content and type, etc.  I could only find one source and I couldn't confirm the values.  They look a bit off too.  I don't know explosive type at all.

Thanks,

-Ogre

[Kats]

The only MG151/20's that weighed 90g (actually it was 92g and it's velocity was 790 not 780) were the "M" rounds. The fighter to fighter armor piercing version produced a gas explosion which German testing showed to be much more effective against soft targets such as fighter aircraft than higher mass fragmenting cannon rounds.

BTW which Hispano are you quoting, it doesn't look like the HS4.

PS, the Hispano was an awesome weapon (when it worked) I agree. As far as simms are concerened especially so, since failures are not usually modelled. If they were the 151/20 would be the weapon of choice, especially the  AtoA M round since it didn't use an impact detinator

[This message has been edited by Kats (edited 11-21-1999).]

[Fishu]

I know something about cannons at least, but comes to think a bit when I need half less ammo just to rip apart B-17, in spitfire than in 190.
I have known for long time that generally Hispano were better cannon than MG 151/20, but isn't there always a limit?  

..and shouldn't 30mm be that super uber weapon when it hits? seen planes survive without damage after 30mm hit, even multiple hits.

[-lynx-]

Don't think it's a question of modeling of a particular round as such - more like detection of a hit by the server. I've posted on AG"Brand W" once about planes surviving 37mm hits (they shouldn't - not fighters anyway) and got an explanation boiling down to the system not registering hit at all - I could see it but the server didn't or something to that effect.

Or, probably, misreading hit from a 30mm as something else (30 cal springs to mind  )

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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF

[-kier-]

Lynx-

I wholeheartedly agree! I have more than once (much more than that!) watched rounds explode up an aircraft on my FE and the enemy flies away unscathed. Later this same guy kills me with an impossibly off-angle, no-chance-in-hell-to-get-lead type shot... bang-dead. I do wonder how many of the "super pilots" have either cable, ISDN, DSL, etc., effectively seeing things truer than the rest of us mere mortals.

[Vermillion]

Kier, I always wonder if its the exact opposite.

How many of those pilots that get alot of kills, have bad connects.

Because its when you beacon out (or him) then the enemy plane effectively either freezes or fly's straight and level making them an easy target.

Early in the beta there was one pilot that was infamous for this, and was the regular topic of discussion on Rookland channel.  He got lots of kills, and they would always be described as he was 2k off, he would blink off and disappear while he was circling above you, then you would suddenly hear a hail storm of pings and he would reappear, as he would then be in front and high above you (obviously just made a high speed diving pass on you, lagged of course). I was skeptical about this until I died to him several times in the exact manner.

His style of flying was quite distinctive (the blinking in and out had something too do with it   ), so you could always tell when he showed up. Radio calls went out like "watch it !! Warpfighter at your hi 66666".


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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires   "

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 11-22-1999).]

[Pongo]

Fishu,
In comparing the spit to the 190, do you mean same length burst but with twice the guns. I usually fly a 4 * 20 190 and I think that it just chews down bombers. I have not flown the spit but I cant imagine it takes down a 17 in a head on any faster then the 190 with 4 * 20s does.  The problem I have is getting to buffs at alt. but thats another story.

[leonid]

Ogre,

That's about all I have on the ShVAK, though from about 3 sources the numbers were always the same.  Also, the sources were all recent(late nineties).

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129 IAP VVS RKKA

[-kier-]

Verm-

You might be right, though it seems in my experience the higher scoring pilots are the low-ping variety. YMMV. I have witnessed the events you've described in the current arena, and usually the same pilot. He kills me from positions that are inhuman (nose pointed away).

Pongo-

I once killed 4 buffs in a flight, and had ammo to spare, all in a Spit. That is pretty lethal IMHO.

[juzz]

YMMV?

[-kier-]

Your Mileage May Vary.  

[Pongo]

Noted Kier. I think that if you lined up 6 of them 2 k appart and let me head on them I could get them all. But you point is noted that is allot of killing for a spit, and I would say that it has no foundation in history.
I am allergic to spits. They get me everytime unless i have a wingy to stomp them after the second turn.. I also find a good guy in a spit hard to hit. They squirm like crazy a line up that will work 80% of the time against a pony will only work 10% for me against spits.