Author Topic: Can you answer this question? (Read 639 times)

humble · « **on:** May 11, 2001, 01:28:00 PM »

Having been away for 4-5 months I'm relearning alot of stuff...however...one of the basic ACM fundementals seems to no longer apply (especially with Niki's). I've flown for almost 8 years and i'm truely confused here.

Situation as follows....

Your cruising at 15k or so at full throttle, level and trimmed, DAR shows a con in your front quarter...you wep and dive 1500 or so and level out just before vis...bogie appears in your front view as expected between top of "front glass and top of gunsight....you maintain speed and heading as you enter "premerge" you maintain heading and watch...con is angling in from slightly above and to the side...as you close thru 3k you turn into and gently pull up to minimize seperation...at 1500 con rolls inverted for a top down shot...again a slight pull up to avoid any possible shot...at merge AOT is probably 270 deg...figure 180 with vidio lag.

To me this is and was a "dweeb" merge, yet time after I'm seening planes...especially nikki's mantaining "contact" and literally climbing up my prettythang with no apparent effect's of gravity G's or physics. i'm not aware of any combination of manuvers that can produce this result in the real world...or prior to last 6 months here or any other sim.

I'm not talking about pos E vert manuvering by a dissimiliar aircraft...where you drive thru and under and come screaming up from the basement....or a true bounce from above.

This is simply a neg E merge where the "proper" tactic should envariably involve maintaining at least co-alt via a "reroll" to an oblique climbing vertical...ideally to a cold side lag out of vis...now the con (ME) has to roll in extension to reorient and try and counter as plane screams back in.

I'm seeing the same folks rack up a lot of kills with this and similiar tactics that I obviously cant understand....so before I go any further i'd love to get some comments on this. I do have clips...i havent looked at em yet, I'd like to get comments so i can match em up to what I see.

Whats funny is I have never seen this stuff duplicated 1 on 1 in TA or DA.

Lephturn · « **Reply #1 on:** May 11, 2001, 01:37:00 PM »

I'd like to see the films so I can get a more detailed picture of what you are seeing.

Tough to comment otherwise.

------------------
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http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

Dago · « **Reply #2 on:** May 11, 2001, 01:59:00 PM »

I'm so confused.

Kieran · « **Reply #3 on:** May 11, 2001, 02:54:00 PM »

If I understand what he is saying, he got the other guy to dive into the merge for a bad angle semi-HO. The other fellow naturally overshot and oversped on the way through, yet somehow managed to reverse and catch him on his zoom upwards from the merge.

Is that close?

humble · « **Reply #4 on:** May 11, 2001, 04:13:00 PM »

I'll be happy to forward clips to anyone interested. I haven't looked at em yet since I'm hoping to get at least a theoretical overview prior to viewing.

Leph...

These were pretty classic neg-E merges (from my pers.) in yak 9t or f6. All are vertical overshoots to the low side by con on merge following a nose down shot on opener...in some instances I extend with nikki climbing up my 6 with no evidence of vertical displacement...I'd expect con to be 1.2-1.5 under min with true pull up....he's tucked in at 500-600 on my six with less than 10 deg AOT...or chop and roll inverted expecting Nikki to be under and at an angles disadvantage...only to find him behind my 3-9 line bringing his nose up.

I'm not ware of anyway to turn a plane in the vertical DOWN that tightly and maintain that speed under the current FM. Kieran's read is exactly right....again at this point I simply want to learn...with 5000+ hours and 1+ yr as a "trainer" in AW plus a tour here I thought I had a decent handle on basic ACM...I've worn shaw out looking for similiar stuff (as well as other sources) and see only reenforcement that this is an impossibility.

DeeZCamp · « **Reply #5 on:** May 12, 2001, 03:18:00 PM »

What you are seeing is the n1k 's Ability To Disagree with what Newton Stated.

The Laws of Physics Do Not apply to the N1k Becuase it has an UNrealistic Phyisics model.

IT was just the Other night that I was killed by one After Out flying it in a 190A8.

Heres a little summary of this UFO experience. The n1k was about 4k out (my 11 o'clock) and About 2k Under my flight Level.
I had been comming in from 21k and crusiing along at around 450mph when i got to the 4k point. I was around 5k and he was around 3k. I his energy state was NOT the same as mine. I went almost Directly into him And Over head, and Started a 1.5 - 2G pull into the Vertical. While doing so I keep an eye on the n1k. The N1k Kept on Flying Straight untill about a Distance of around 4 k Behing me. Again... After we had merged (me with more alt) And As I went over the Top roughtly around 9K he had started a reversal from 3k OUT.. and CLIMBED to me. And shot me as I was just strating to come down. Now that is Complete utter Bs.. im sorry HE did not Lead turn me.. lag turn me.. HE didnt do anything At all except TURN while being 4k!!! out and climbing to me An already 2K alt advatge plane. I find this to be ufo like.

funked · « **Reply #6 on:** May 12, 2001, 03:23:00 PM »

-ammo- · « **Reply #7 on:** May 12, 2001, 03:28:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble:

Your cruising at 15k or so at full throttle, level and trimmed, DAR shows a con in your front quarter...

<ammo brings whistle to mouth and simultaneously reaches to back pocket projecting his yellow penalty flag forward>

Personal foul!!!! Individual using clipboard DAR while in flight! 15 yards, loss of down.

ammo

humble · « **Reply #8 on:** May 12, 2001, 04:08:00 PM »

hehe....I agree completely ammo...BUT, thats the point of this thread....we all play the same game. How we use the features is up to us. I'll send clips to anyone interested. I simply do not understand how you accomplish what I have on film in this flight enviornment. These same squeakes existed before I left, they are here now....but I see no clips. If consensus is I flew a bad hop...great, maybe I'll learn something...if others agree with me, maybe HT and pyro will address it.

bloom25 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 12, 2001, 05:19:00 PM »

I'm not qualified to comment on the N1ks flight model, but I will say it sure seems to be able to do just about everything but go super fast. (Don't try to dive away from one though, they pick up speed faster than a p47 until about 500 mph.) I only attack N1ks when flying a spit. Otherwise I try to Boom and Zoom them when I think they aren't paying attention. A co-e fight with a n1k in anything other than a n1k is not a fight that you are going to win.

------------------
bloom25
-MAW-
(Formerly of the)
THUNDERBIRDS

humble · « **Reply #10 on:** May 13, 2001, 09:48:00 AM »

bloom,

Seems like alot of folks have nikki questions. They were out there when I left in Jan....still here. The dving/climbing seem to be two sides of same coin....drag.

Nikkis seems to build/retain E in an amazing way. If Nikki is really this good then I'm amazed we won the war.

Toad · « **Reply #11 on:** May 13, 2001, 12:26:00 PM »

I guess I'm blind.

I just looked at my stats against the Nik.

Tour 15 I flew the 205 only. I ended up 7-2 against the Nik in that. Never had much problem with them.

So far in Tour 16 I am 1-0 against it in the P38 and 5-3 against it in the Spit V. (I've pretty much decided this will be a P-38 tour. SpitV is too easy.

)

In Tour 14 when I was hopping around between the Yak-9T (1-2), the 205 (3-4), the P-51 (1-0) and the Zeke (1-1) I ended up 6-7 cumulative. A losing record, but essentially even money. I flew the Yak and the 205 for the first time that tour and really didn't know how to use them.

The Niki is good. I have never found it to be a "wonder machine" though. If I make mistakes, I die. If I don't, I usually kill it.

YMMV.

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 05-13-2001).]

Creamo · « **Reply #12 on:** May 13, 2001, 12:46:00 PM »

"If Nikki is really this good then I'm amazed we won the war."

Holy... now we have the George so good it could win the entire war?

Might have been that the Japanese were out of pilots, starving, being firebombed and way out numbered.

Let the witchhunt continue, but at least make it rational, that's just plain retarded.

[This message has been edited by Creamo (edited 05-13-2001).]

humble · « **Reply #13 on:** May 13, 2001, 07:42:00 PM »

The only question I have with the nikki is it's E retention. there's an awful lot involved in Win/Loss ratios beside the planes involved. Lot of people think it's an issue, I'm leaning that way, but looking for answers.

Vulcan · « **Reply #14 on:** May 13, 2001, 08:21:00 PM »

I know what humble means.

The example I most often see goes like this:

We in tiffie, n1ki roughly co-alt 12 oclock.
I nose the tiff over a bit and wep to get maximum speed for merge.
We merge with me just under niki setting to avoid the enivitable HO shot.
Niki blows through in a 30-40 degree dive.
I blow through and ease back to a 20-30 degree climb.
I watch the niki and slowly steepen my climb.
At this stage the most common move is the niki then loops back (hard) maxing out at d2-3 seperation and starts climbing after me.
Remember, I have not executed any hard turns, rolls etc, just flown straight thru, into a gentle climb.
The niki will always catch me or get within sprayshot distance.

Essentially the niki has blown past me, reversed, and caught me in a combination of vertical/horizontal seperation.

The only choice I have is not to climb after blow through.

Its almost like they have no E loss in either the reversal or climb. And then they accelerate in the climb resulting in an easy catch of me. I also take care not to give back any horizontal seperation as I go vertical, making the niki come to me. Still doesn't work.

Author Topic: Can you answer this question? (Read 639 times)

funked