Author Topic: Shutting off Killshooter?  (Read 718 times)

Offline muckmaw

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« on: July 15, 2003, 01:00:04 PM »
In my spare time, I've been messing around with America's Army.

They have an interesting way of dealing with Killshooter/Team killers.

If you shoot another friendly, you lose an honor point. You start with 10 Honor points, and if you do not have 10, you cannot play in many servers until you rebuild that point. (I have yet to figure out how to do this.)

Anyway, what about a similar system in AH?

I think this has been brought up before, but I'm not sure.

Shoot and damage a friendly, lose an honor point. Lose enough and your forced to be grounded for 24 hours, or can only fly goons, or something. Sorta like doing time in the penalty box. Lose enough Honor points, and your grounded for a tour.

Just thinking out loud here.

Offline SlapShot

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2003, 01:05:54 PM »
Oh my cod !!! ... things must be REALLY SLOW at the office.

You just can't prevent yourself from stirring the pot or beating the dead horse on these types of days.

;) :p
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Offline Rude

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2003, 01:40:58 PM »
I think your on to something....may I?

If you shoot or damage a friendly and you're a strat player, then you must fly a Zeke for a cumulative 24hr period.

If you shoot or damage a friendly and you're a furballer, then you must fly a B-17 for a cumulative 24hr period.

Now the above has some serious teeth:)

Offline muckmaw

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2003, 01:49:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
Oh my cod !!! ... things must be REALLY SLOW at the office.

You just can't prevent yourself from stirring the pot or beating the dead horse on these types of days.

;) :p


What are you talking about?

I'm playing America's Army, and I had an idea. So it's been done? It's been mentioned?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2003, 01:52:58 PM by muckmaw »

Offline Sandman

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2003, 01:53:14 PM »
It's a good idea MM...


Unfortunately, at least half the people here (and all the people at HTC that matter) are uninterested in "fixing" the killshooter system because "it's not broken."
sand

Offline Furious

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2003, 01:54:29 PM »
MAW on MAW

Fight!
Fight!
Fight!
Fight!
Fight!








blech.

Offline muckmaw

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2003, 02:01:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
It's a good idea MM...


Unfortunately, at least half the people here (and all the people at HTC that matter) are uninterested in "fixing" the killshooter system because "it's not broken."


Honestly, it does not bother me much. I think I've had 2 killshooter incidents in my life. I have just seen many complain about it, and thought I would offer a suggestion.

Apparently, this topic has been discussed ad nauseum, and no solution was found.

Offline Sandman

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2003, 02:30:48 PM »
I get truly annoyed with it whenever it happens... especially when a "friendly" flys through my aircraft and right into my line of fire.
sand

Offline SlapShot

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2003, 03:17:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
I think your on to something....may I?

If you shoot or damage a friendly and you're a strat player, then you must fly a Zeke for a cumulative 24hr period.

If you shoot or damage a friendly and you're a furballer, then you must fly a B-17 for a cumulative 24hr period.

Now the above has some serious teeth:)


Rude ...

Lazs ain't gonna go for that. He must run into killshooter more than most cause he is always shooting over someone's shoulder tryin to steal the kill.

Can you see him in a buff ... err ... I mean "fluff".
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Offline Dead Man Flying

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2003, 04:02:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Unfortunately, at least half the people here (and all the people at HTC that matter) are uninterested in "fixing" the killshooter system because "it's not broken."


BINGO!

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline Sandman

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2003, 04:04:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
BINGO!

-- Todd/Leviathn



It's a shame... really. There are other options, but we've never tried another (at least not in recent memory).
« Last Edit: July 15, 2003, 04:19:30 PM by Sandman »
sand

Offline Bullethead

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2003, 04:21:43 PM »
Can't let this dead horse be dragged by again without giving it another kick of my own, for Hate's sake.  Damn thing didn't die hard enough ;)  So, those of you who've closed your minds to the truth, feel free to tune out at this point.  For the rest.....

Killshooter sucks compared to every plausible alternative.  This is because the penalties of killshooter usually fall hardest on the least deserving of punishment, and fear of these penalties cramps the style of all the honest pilots while doing absolutely nothing to discourage the problem children.  As such, killshooter is not fair by any stretch of the imagination, nor is it even a reasonable solution.

Friendly fire usually doesn't come into play except when somebody is trying to steal a kill.  Who's the badguy in that situation?  The honest guy who did all the work bleeding the nme down and is now somewhat slow himself, or the fast jerk swooping in to steal the easy kill?  But Killshooter allows the interloper complete freedom to steal the kill, while denying the guy who did all the work his just reward.  Or say you've braved the defensive fire and have slowed a buff formation by crippling the leader, and then some jerk swoops in and kills them all while you're dodging bullets.

It is thus obvious that Killshooter actually ENCOURAGES kill-stealing behavior.  Why blow your E, risk damage, or otherwise inconvenience yourself when there's such a good chance of it being all for nothing?  Rather, if you want kills, you should play the jerk, letting other guys do the work, then snap up the spoils yourself.

If the real world used the same logic as Killshooter in its laws, the following things would happen:
  • You spend a lot of time and effort writing a book.  The night before you mail the manuscript to the publisher, somebody steals it off your desk and publishes it himself, and the courts think this is perfectly OK.  
  • You're stopped at an intersection and your light turns green.  You start across and get broadsided by some jerk running the red light.  But he gets off scot-free because he had more E, which gives him the right to bowl you over, and you're stuck with the damage.


Granted, there needs to be something in place to discourage the grief fragging of friendlies.  However, I am of the firm opinion that the threat posed by grief fragging is FAR less than enough to warrant the heavy-handed coercion of Killshooter.  As was proved by DOS AW, grief fragging can be controlled by a PNG system, something rather like what MuckMAW found in A'sA.  Such as system lays a much lighter burden on the honest pilots who make up the vast bulk of the population, while reserving its punishments almost exclusively for the guilty.

Killshooter sucks.  

Offline Furious

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2003, 04:22:17 PM »
I don't want to dogfight the red guy in front of me AND the three green love muffines firing over my shoulder.

Killshooter works great.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2003, 05:26:00 PM »
Planetside has pretty much the same griefer system as America's Army and it works quite well and it has pretty much curtailed any intentional griefing by little llamas.

As for the killshooter we have in AH, it really doesn't bother me all that much since I think I've only died a grand total of 2-3 times from it and those came when I intentionally shot at my squad mate when we were screwing around in a mock duel.  But I do think they are better alternatives and one of them is the PNG system we used to have in AW.  Shoot two friendlies down in a 24 hour period and you had your ammo taken away for 24 hours.  For every friendly you kill beyond the 2 limit, it was an additional 24 hour PNG (Persona Non Grata) for each kill.  You would still be able to fly while you were PNG but you couldn't carry any ammo or bombs and were pretty much delegated to goon duty.


Ack-Ack
« Last Edit: July 15, 2003, 08:05:05 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline acepilot2

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Shutting off Killshooter?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2003, 06:37:10 PM »
America's army is a really great game.  IMO it is a masterpiece in realism.  By far the most realistic FPS i have seen to date.   If troops ever get implemented into AH, would like to see them use same system weapons and CEM systtem as Americas army. What is your name in the game?


Okay anyway, what I posted this reply to say...


The new court martial system in TOD will hopefully be similiar to this.  If you kill a friendly, you will get a court martial.  in america's army, if you get too many ROE points (Rules of engagement points, you do not want them)  you get sent to jail and is therefore kicked out of the game.  In AH2, maybe if you exceed the friendly kill limit you get sent to jail or something:confused: