Film Clips...answers please

[humble]

Got 3 clips from today.

1st is a quickie hog clip....far as I'm concerned hilights everything I think is wrong with "quakeAH". I honestly do not see how this merge is possible....hog comes in from hi rolls inverted for a shot passes behind level to slightly nosedown into a low yoyo cold side lag....faster than I can rev my nose up 190 back into him.

I'm guessing a low E hog could do this....so if he chopped and low E maybe...but he's level above me and clearly diving in on merge.

2nd clip...everyting AH is and should be...nice pony vs yak fight....every move makes some logical sense and fight goes the way it should....right up till I dig a new swimming pool ...comments from anyone on improvement greaty appreciated.

3rd clip

A pony vs nikki fight. Nikki is pos-e at start. I watch him make what I consider to be serious ACM errors repeatedly with no ill effects at all. Again we're back to "quakeAH". The nikki is not that fast and I'm at a loss to explain the flight path on the overshoots.

If your that fast....you cant turn that tight...if you turn that tight you cant carry that much thru the manuver. If I'm wrong here please enlighten me.

Absolutely no neg or slight is intended to anyone who happens to be named in these clips. We're all playing the same game...it's the underlying ACM/flight model I'm trying to understand.

I do not know how to post a clip so email me or drop a request on this thread and I'll sens you a zipfile. Please post replies here, I'd like an open forum instead of private responses.

Thanx

[Hooligan]

email the clips to me at jayb@exmsft.com and I will put them up where they can be downloaded.

Hooligan

[Exile]

I'd like to see these. exile@simladder.com

[humble]

Hooligan,

clips got returned I'll try again. Exile, you should have em....all comments critiques welcome...please post em here instead of email....thanx

[Hooligan]

The films are posted at:

 http://www.lvcm.com/jayb/fil74.zip

I only looked at the F4U film (film6).  This is what I see.

On the merge the F4U is coming in higher than you with a lot of smash.  After it passes it pulls back toward you in a right hand turn.  You turn left about 90 degrees (you start at about 300IAS going N).  At this point both the F4U and you are turning in towards each other, and the F4U still has some E advantage over you.  Range numbers are still increasing so you both have turned about 90 degrees and are still separating slightly.  At this point, if you would have continued turning left (and the F4U continued right) you would have been presented with another HO opportunity.  Instead you turn 90 degrees right back to North and your final speed is about 200IAS.  The F4U continues his right hand turn and ends up on your tail and kills you.  Both of you turned about 180 degrees, his was 180 right and yours was 90 left followed by 90 right.  The F4U started with more smash and still had more smash after the turns.

Hooligan

[Greg 'wmutt' Cook]

I just watched the 3 films, and I totally agree with Hooligan about the Hog clip.  You might as well of sawed off your own tail with a hacksaw.  The hog had more E to start with coming from a higher alt (remember, they are heavy birds too), and the second turn you made gave him a great shot.  I might have tried to continue the first turn another 90 degrees and extended for a little alt, making the hog come around the full 360 lower than you. (Unless he pulled up vert over the top   )
  I saw a short Pony vs Spit fight in film #6, not a Yak.  You won this fight purely by having a lot more E than the Spit, and getting a good surprise bounce.  Even though, there were a couple of close calls, where you gave up good position.  Patience is more than a virtue in the Pony, and the only hurrying you do will be toward a smoking hole.
  The N1k fight shows this to an extreme.  I lost count of how many times you had a great chance to extend, climb, and reset for a good attack, and you reversed right back with him co-E.  In the Pony, if you're fighting fair, you're outnumbered.  Now, granted, I did see some amazing pulls by the N1k, but you were riding a pretty rough road yourself, and blowing a lot of E on low probability  passes.  I would have tried to get some separation, and climb up, then reset for another slash.  As a side note, your after flight "salute" could use a little work if you want to make friends  
:
I'm not an expert at anything about AH mind you, but a lot of really good pilots have tried (with little, but improving result) to teach me how to fly in the Pony.  If I'm wrong about what I said, I hope they'll steer you right.

Muttz
332 Flying Mongrels

[humble]

Thanx for reply's...thats why I but em out for review....I made the comment to hooligan on the email that my opener was a tweener.

My question was/is how do you retain that E and turn rate. I agree he was pos E coming in, seperation at my 3 was 275-300, at my 6 600 at my low 7 maxed at 850 or so. Yes I could of tightened up into a HO. I'm simply amazed at that turn....from recall I was in a climbing lefthander at mod G's (3-3.5)...so I'm clearly in an E fighting mindset and he hosed me on the angles...the rev was a dumb move but im not into mutual HO's ...also I'm way off on his eburn in my mind.

Mutt....clip "#6" should be hog, 9 pony/yak and #12 the pony/nikki. By nature I'm a T&Ber so pure B&Z has no interest to me. I was/am trying to find that fine line on E-fighting the pony....I'm sure that my judgement in the pony (and all planes) could use help. I didnt have any interest in buzz bombing him. My question was/is that E retention by nikki. I sincerly appreciate any critique on any/all the clips.

The questions are still as follows....

1) how does the hog retain that kind of E there...or am I just way off on my "mindset"...from my end I think that kind of E would throw him out 1.2-1.5....even with my rev into him. Thats an awful tight low yoyo he's flying. Hooligans call is simple...he's +E going in....my mid/lowspeed rev shortens his path and he still has enough E to climb into my climbing rev. My only issue here is G limits & E loss on that turn.

2) Nikki E retention...you see what I see with regard to the pulls. I'm certainly looking for any/all critique on how I flew that one, but my real question is that E modeling. My feeling is that my rev's were in a moderate pos E position. By nature I'm to aggresive (pure angles fighter) so I agree patience is a problem. It's that fine line I'm hoping to find again.

I've flown 7-8 yrs now mutt and I'm not aware of any bad manners....I throw out plenty of salutes/compliments...I had a great pony/pony with Kappa yesterday...he cleaned my clock and he got a big <S> and compliment.

Thanx for input, it's greatly appreciated.

[humble]

Greg,

Let me ask you question different way....is the E bleed mine...hvy hands...extra G's...or lack of e bleed on nikki. I'm simply trying to "recalibrate" my expectations here.

[Hooligan]

1)  You both turn about 180 degrees.  You both bleed a lot of E.  It appears to me that he in fact bleeds significantly more, but... he started with a big advantage so he still has more E at the end.

You retain E by doing the following:  Never do a tight turn when a more shallow turn will do what's necessary.  Do vertical moves in preference to horizontal moves.  Climb during pauses.  When I watched the N1K clip it seemed to me that he was pretty good about doing these things.

Hooligan

[This message has been edited by Hooligan (edited 05-13-2001).]

[Hooligan]

Humble:

Not aware of any bad manners?  Do you rember your comment about the "roadkill FM" to the N1K pilot.  Explain to me how you can tell anybody:  "You're flying an uber-airplane and I'm not", without the implication being that it was the other plane and not the other pilot that beat you.

Hooligan

[MrSiD]

I saw the films and I have to say that you made so big mistakes fighting the n1k that I'm really amazed you flew away from that fight. The n1k actually did what you should have done, held E and pulled to vertical.

I saw you lose a perfectly good rope position in the beginning of the fight with a move that burned most of your spare E. Although N1k's are dangerous to rope at least you could have gained a better position.. Anyone who starts turning a pony with n1k is picking letters for his gravestone.

The chog encounter was clearly a missed call. Chog is a bad opponent to a pony especially if it has speed like this one had.
Looks like you lost sight of the chog and started turning back on his flightpath.

The turn the chog made was so tight, that he should have burned all the advantage he had by that time so you just had bad luck to give him a clear gunning position.

[humble]

What I said on ch 1 is being said by 75% or more of this community. The reason I put the films up was to ask questions/get answers. I didn't insult pilot or make any excuse. I also made comment to you in the E-mail that he extended and reloaded...only to make same errors. I also asked any/all comments be posted not private....I'll take the good and the bad from this. I don't claim to be any kind of "super stick" or am I hiding behind any BS complaints or excuses.

I agree with you in the Hog clip....I pulled what I felt was moderate climbing turn (maybe G load bit hi)...he climbed all over me....only question is the turn. I appreciate the time you took and respect your answer.

I've never intentionally ripped anyone that I can recall....but the FM issues are real.
The Chog is a curiosity to me. Far as I'm concerned the Nikki is porked. However, I'm searching for alternative's also.

Mr Sid....the nikki started that fight Pos-E/Pos angles...he's closing on my dead 6. He's bleeding E from the very beginning. Yes I did push the fight, and truthfully I should of won it easily ( I'm rusty as hell).

I'm certainly open to any/all critique on what I can/could to better (for starters I'm pulling to many G's myself). The issue here isn't my flying, I'm looking at the E retention of the Nikki, I happen to think it's way to high based on what I see.

To me I'm not positive E in beginning of fight...I did try for a couple ropes later but Nikki had to much E (whole point of thread)...either I'm scraping E to much...or pushing it to hard...or using bad judgement...or nikki is overmodeled. Any/all possibilities. Again, thank you for taking time to look at the clips.

[humble]

Mr Sid....looked at that that clip. Don't see what your talking about. To me, thats a well flown neg E fight for a pony in that situation. I was 235 at beginning with hoim closing....rev into him only way I could. Not a single non vertical move in fight from me. No major wasted E (lot of little stuff)...yes I could of Run...er extended...but why...he kept going out instead of up...he had multiple chances to go vert over me and dance on my head...last rev pushed it a bit far, but thats where the fun is. Again every pass including the last I feel he's out of position and the flight model is not "charging" him to reorient to me.

[darling]

If you don't have the patience that B&Z requires, don't fly B&Z primary planes like the pony and 190, is my advice to you.
I can't really advise on the 190a8 vs Hog fight, since I never fly 190a8. I never had any problems with 190s in my Hog until the Dora showed up, and it just ran away a lot  
In the Pony vs N1K, you should have extended and roped him. I do this all the time (6 kills of N1K, no death). Takes a little time and work, but it's oh so rewarding  
Same goes for the Spit really, you should have extended and controlled the fight. The pony is one of the fastest planes around, use it wisely.
I saw nothing particularly strange about the FM stuff in the vids, that I don't see every day.
If you want to explore the border between B&Z and T&B, try the Spit9 or the N1K (did I say that or think it?), both are good at either type of fighting.


------------------
2nd Lt. Hogni "Darling" Gylfason
332nd FG "Flying Mongrels"
143rd Pursuit Wing
 

[This message has been edited by darling (edited 05-13-2001).]

[AKDejaVu]

Didn't see the Yak fight... seems the clips posted weren't all there.

As far as the other two go.. you really need to focus more on your own energy condition.  Hooligan and MrSid pretty much covered your mistakes.

The only thing that that seems to seem uber is simply an N1K doing a lead turn (via immelman) on you as you were climbing at about 220.  I figure the N1K was doing about 300 or more at the bottom of the move and totally had you out energied... can't believe you lived.

AKDejaVu