Film Clips...answers please

[Greg 'wmutt' Cook]

I went online this afternoon and filmed some N1k maneuvers.  Sorry about the long flight, but there are a few interesting points.  Note the immelman on take off, the negative G stability, and the insanely tight radius near the end.  I think I was also able to do an immelman, then an outside immelman, to make a big S over the field.  
This thing does seem to have a secret Swiss E-bank account.  I wonder if the real one can do that.
here is the link:
N1k film 290K

[humble]

AK/Darling...both of you are excellent pony drivers...I do respect/understand your point of view and I can fly both ways. Again, if you look at the remerge after his 3.5 horizontal extension on 1st merge...he 1s close to me at my 3...435 at my low 6 1.5 back as I climb at 210...1.3 as i hit 200...and tops out just behind me at 230 or so.   To me he should of gone vertical on 1st merge...he was nose down to me on 2nd merge. I pushed it since he wasn't, form my view point after 1st merge I controlled fight from 1st merge on. Yes, the last rev was pushing it...but again he flew it badly...far as im concerned the e retention is way off.

No doubt I can fly a more efficient fight...but far as I'm concerned you can E fight a pony just fine...the B&Z stuff is just to boring for me.

[humble]

Greg,

thanx for taking time for a "test flight"...seems like you've got your own questions now...or am I miss reading that last post?

[Greg 'wmutt' Cook]

No, I've always thought that there might be some "irregularities" in the N1k's FM.  I don't have the heart to fly it in combat much, cause I figure that if I can get a kill or two in it, there must be something wrong.    I don't see it as invincible, cause I seem to die in it, just like most of the other planes I sign out, I just take a few with me before I go.  I'm sure HTC will fix it.  Till then, I just don't hang around them long enough to let them get guns on me.
Stay fast and live!  

Muttz

[MrSiD]

Heh, flying n1k after being used to an E fighter is deadly.

I've found out that when on a n1k you have to forget everything you learned to be successful. Yank it, stall it, flip it over and over and it will keep on going.. That's why the newbies love it.

[Pepe]

Flying a N1K2 myself quite a bit, lately.

Let me put in front that I do not know anything as far as the "real" performances of the thing in RL, or how those are modelled in here.

Like MrSid says, using N1K2 e-conciously makes it a deadly plane. Had loads of ammo. Works wonders on the vertical. Turn&Burn with anyone. Good rudder authority. Quite sturdy. Stable gun platform.

On the other hand, It is pretty easy for quite a lot of planes here to disengage, (only average hi-speed control, average to bad performance hi above, and blackouts quite easyly) only don't get caught low and slow, or with big e-disadvantage.

If you make flat turns against a N1K2, you better be a good Spitfire driver, or a Zeke one. No Pony should even try to turnfite it.

Just my 2 cents.

Pepe

[MrSiD]

Pepe: IMO n1k blackouts very little at high speeds. I dove after a tempest the other night and was amazed how I could use the controls to make the nose point on the temp just like it was going in a slow motion movie.. Not even a trace of blackout and precise controllability at around 400mph.

Right after that I tried to do the same in a spit and the world was pitch black after the first touch to the stick.

[Pepe]

Spit blackout VERY easily. I agree with that. It's worse than N1K2 for sure. The reason why the George blackouts very little at hight speeds has to do, IMO, with hi-speed control. N1K2 becomes, as you point, slow motion at hi speeds. Over 300 kts. IAS, it rolls very slowly, and elev authority is also reduced. So it is difficult to pull high G's when moving very fast. I think Spit elev authority is better at high speeds.

Pretty much all of the faster planes in AH can cut into a N1K2 at higher speeds (+300), and that's the trick with fiting against George. If the faster plane manages to keep its speed over 300/350, little the George can do. Besides that, over 20k, N1K2 can do nil.

Cheers,

Pepe

[MANDOBLE]

Humble, in the first case, F4U vs 190A8, you have little or no chances to survive even in at co-E initial situation. If you want to know exactly what I mean, go offline, pickup a Hog 75% fuel, level it at 5k and try tight loops with initial speeds of 300, 275 and 250 mph. Now try the same with 190A8. Notice the absence of horn warning in the case of Hog and the relative loose of speed in the loops.

And Pepe, you are right about defensive moves against nikki, the problem is to convert the deffensive pos into a offensive one. If you keep so fast, the nikki will be able to track you unless you break. If you break at hi speed, the nikki will go up with little loose of E and gaining a lot of control. You'll have little or no chances to pass to offensive.

[humble]

MANDOBLE,

your the 1st true hog driver that responded to you...and I agree, a 190 is gonna be hard pressed there no matter what. When I saw hog slash down I was suprised...my instant reaction at seperation 300 (my hi 3) 600 as he disappeared under my tail...900 as I reaquired on climbing turn ld me to believe he was slow and pulling max G's....obviously I was wrong...my ONLY question is speed/drag/e-ret. I'd expect to turn that tight he has to be at corner speed (225?) now he's pulling awful hard to get that nose up around. Normally a hog there is coming up in my front aspect as I turn....he's still well behind my 3-9 line and literally in a full HO as I close to 550 or so and pull up.

If you feel that that's a moderate or hi speed turn...or my climbing turn..initially to regain vis...then based on what i saw...was a moron move that enabled closure I'll accept it. I just was amazed he could turn the hog 270 deg in total of 1.2 in low yoyo with that much E.

[Hooligan]

Humble:  

That hog did not turn 270 degrees.

At the beginning of the film you are going almost due N and he is almost due S.  At the end you are both almost due N, this means the hog turned about 180 AND SO DID YOU.  I think the hog bled a LOT of energy.  However you did also (from 300 IAS to about 200).

The hog did the simplest thing possible.  He dove in and tried to HO you.  When he missed he just yanked his plane around in a right turn towards you, there was no finesse or E management whatsoever that I could see.  You turned into him and once you started doing that you should have committed yourself to another merge, but then you turned away a just gave him your 6.  I can't even think of a way you could make it easier for him.  If you were AFK on autotrim and just flew straight he would have probably never caught you after blowing all that E in his turn.

Nothing in any of your 3 films is indicative of anything funny in any FM.

Hooligan

[humble]

You may be right there...i'm at work so i cant view clip. I went right to min hor seperation...he's already turning into me. Then Rev as he passed. I kind of figured he's turning before during and after merge...also i'm climbing so there's a vertical seperation as well.

Once again I have no problem with the strong probability that the "moron at work" sign was lit on the back of the 190  .

I'm simply reacting to what visual clues I was given with regard to relative E state/burn.


On the nikki I just happen to disagree with you. At the critical points in fight his positioning is very inconsistant with E retention. He's working against his own momentum. He does extend to reload on multiple occasions, and yes I'm pushing way into the "red zone" with regard to my own E state. But my gut feel is that he's not bleeding E at all.

The one "segment" is the 3rd merge...(off memory) he pulls up off my 6 and I rev back to him....i'm trying to maintain contact since he pulled to vert then extended hor away...not a good E move at all. I feel like I'm minimizing his E gain...he pulls back to me and goes for HO into a diving reverse. thats the worst possible move he could make in my opinion. He's fighting his own momentum all the way. Now, I was also working on a little E so yes he's gonna gain some...buts he's climbing like a bat out of hell there  

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by humble:
MANDOBLE, your the 1st true hog driver ...

Mistaken, I'm an A8 driver, not Hog. But I have a clear idea of what can do the Hog and sincerely, your chances to survive are minimal. You cant even extend, he is faster after a dive. If you get into scissors he will follow, if he fails he will keep much more energy than you. If you are success forcing a CoE situation, he will outturn/outdive/outclimb you. If you get a bit of E advantage, you cant invest it on the vertical, the hog will outzoom you. Your only real hope is a hog mistake or to force a HO.

[hblair]

 

Originally posted by humble:
What I said on ch 1 is being said by 75% or more of this community.

Not to sway off-topic, but I'll do my best to remain in that 25% minority.

[Fester']

OHMYGAWD!

Ive never seen 3 films debated this much, not even 3 good ones.

My advice Humble.  If you dont understand what a plane is doing, then go fly that plane.  Youre going to get a much more accurate accessment in the cockpit then from looking in your 6 view.

My secong advice is to fly more and analyze less.  

You used poor judgement in your encounters.  If you use an E fighter, use it AS an efighter, which means having more E comming into a fight than your opponent and disengaging when you become co e or loose the advantage altogether.

If you want to turn and Burn (nothing wrong with it) then use a plane suited to that.