Author Topic: income and wealth  (Read 729 times)

Offline JBA

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income and wealth
« on: July 22, 2003, 10:46:16 PM »
About the Rich.
Here is a compelling statement, Congressman Patrick Kennedy, D-RI (Rhode Island for those of you in public schools) recently declared to fellow members at a Washington nightspot, “I don’t need Bush’s tax cut, I’ve never worked a F***king day in my life”

A number of other rich people, i.e. Warren Buffet, have at various times likewise declared that they do not need what are called “tax cuts for the rich”. But whatever political points such rhetoric may score, it confuses issues that are long overdue to be clarified.

One of the most basic confusions is between income and wealth. You can have high income and low wealth or vice versa. We have all heard of athletes and entertainers who have earned millions, that ended up broke.

There are also people of relatively modest incomes who have saved and invested enough over the years to leave surprisingly large amounts of wealth to their heirs.

Income tax cuts apply to income, not wealth. So the fact that some rich people say they don’t need a tax cut means nothing because they are not getting a tax cut on their wealth, since their wealth is not being taxed anyway.

Looked at differently, high tax rates hit people who are currently earning high incomes- usually late in life, after having worked their way up in their professions over a period of decades. Such as myself.

Genuinely rich people who have never had to work a day in their lives –people like Kennedy- are unaffected by income taxes except on what they are currently earning, which may be a tiny fraction of what they own.

In other words, soak-the-rich tax rates do not, in fact, soak the rich.

Someone who eventually works his way up to $100,000 a year will qualify as “rich” in liberal rhetoric, but by the time you reach that level you may have a few kids, college tuition, mortgage etc. You’re not exactly buying yachts.

Another fundamental confusion over tax rates with reduction in tax revenues collected by the government.

One of the enduring political myths of our generation has been the claim that the rise in deficits during the 1980s resulted from President Reagan’s “tax cuts for the rich.”

Tax rates were cut. Tax revenues were not.

More tax revenues were collected during every year of the two Reagan administrations than had ever been collected in any previous year in the history of the country. Nor was this experience unique.

When President Kennedy cut tax rates during the 1960s, tax revenues went up. The whole point was –and is- to encourage more economic activity and more activity generates more tax revenues, even at lower rates.

The same thing happened back in the 1920s.

Why, then, were there federal deficits during the Reagan administration? Because Congress spent even more money the then rising tax revenues brought in.

There is no amount of money that congress cannot out spend.

Although these were christened “the Reagan deficits,” all spending bills originate in the House of Representatives- and Reagan was never a member of congress. Indeed, the Republicans never controlled the House of Representatives during the Reagan Years.

Only after the Republican party gained control of the house in 1994 were there budget surpluses-for which president Clinton took credit, even though he too, had never been a member of Congress.

It is fascinating to see congressional Democrats, who have for decades been spending the country into growing deficits, suddenly expressing shock at the current deficits that have occurred while President Bush is in the White House- and the country is at war.

How serious are these deficits? As with all debts the burden depends on what your income is. As a percentage of national income, today’s deficits and national debts are far below what they were when Democrats were spending.
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
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Offline Mark Luper

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income and wealth
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2003, 11:23:47 PM »
Interesting read JBA.
MarkAT

Keep the shiny side up!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2003, 11:55:53 PM »
Mark, can I put my lawnchair next to yours? I'll put the cooler between us, OK?


:)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Montezuma

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Re: income and wealth
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2003, 12:37:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by JBA
Income tax cuts apply to income, not wealth. So the fact that some rich people say they don’t need a tax cut means nothing because they are not getting a tax cut on their wealth, since their wealth is not being taxed anyway.  


The original author of this tripe - whoever he is - forgot about capital gains, estate, and dividend taxes.

Offline Dowding

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income and wealth
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2003, 02:49:28 AM »
You mean JBA did not write this stuff? You're kidding me!!

JBA - it's good form to clearly mark lifted text with the author's details.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Cherlie

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« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2003, 03:25:28 AM »
Quote
The original author of this tripe - whoever he is - forgot about capital gains, estate, and dividend taxes.


I beg to differ.  the rich don't pay taxes on capital gains through Real Estate, it's called a 1031 Tax-Deferred Exchange.

But I bet you knew that huh?

CB

Offline Frogm4n

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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2003, 03:59:03 AM »
"dividends whats that?that shouldnt be taxed its a made up word."


said the rich kid to the working man.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2003, 07:59:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cherlie
I beg to differ.  the rich don't pay taxes on capital gains through Real Estate, it's called a 1031 Tax-Deferred Exchange.

But I bet you knew that huh?

CB


That is a British tax rule I'm assuming..please elaborate.  

I think you will find that this deferral, or whatever it is, is along the same lines as the Principal Residence exemption in the Canadian Tax Act.  Basically you can elect to have the sale of a property designated as the home you live in (if it meets certain criteria) and part, or all of the gain on the sale is free of tax.

BUT...very rich people normally have investment properties, or second and third homes.  In Canada they will pay tax on any capital gain on those properties.

Capital gains also result from the gain on sale of stock or on assets sold, such as yachts, cars, art-work, etc etc.

QUOTED BY MONTEZUMA - The original author of this tripe - whoever he is - forgot about capital gains, estate, and dividend taxes.

Amen...amen.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2003, 08:57:52 AM »
There's still a good point there.

The accumulated wealth of guys like Buffett and Kennedy is treated much differently than "normal income".

Yeah, they pay real estate taxes every year. In the States, that's usually a pittance compared to income tax on an income of a few million bucks. Real Estate taxes in my area of Kansas are ~1% of valuation.

So I'm thinking their gazillion dollar estates are appreciating at a much faster rate than taxes are eroding their value.

Now their miserly multi-million dollar incomes are  annually getting whacked up near the 40% range, right?

I could go on, but "wealth" is different from income in terms of how it is taxed.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Curval

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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2003, 09:10:09 AM »
Estate taxes are paid on a person's death.  The rate is about 48% currently.  Realty taxes are not what we are talking about here.

After Jacky Kennedy died the Kennedy's had a massive sale of memorabilia.  They did so because the estate didn't have the cash to pay out on the estate tax owed.

There is no doubt that income and wealth are taxed "differently"...not arguing that.  But to suggest that they avoid taxes on their wealth is silly...unless of course they opt to accumulate their wealth offshore.  ;)
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Toad

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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2003, 09:18:06 AM »
Well, why hasn't the Kennedy clan been impoverished over the years then?

Did Joe just amass such a huge pile that the continual estate taxes have failed to make much of a dent?

Or are there enough loopholes and dodges that the core wealth continues on relatively unabated so that young Patrick needs not soil his hands?

Enquiring minds want to know.  ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Curval

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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2003, 09:26:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
unless of course they opt to accumulate their wealth offshore.  ;)


They don't put all their eggs in one country's basket Toad.:D  They learned the lesson from Scarlett O'Hara in Gone With The Wind.  She ended up broke while Rhett (who had the bulk of his wealth offshore) was in fine shape.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline JBA

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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2003, 09:37:08 AM »
Estate Tax is not assessed until a person dies.(inheritance tax) If it is placed in a trust with a trust manager who is not the primary wealth holder then he/she is not taxed. The tax code allows for (I think) $50,000 a year to be paid out with out tax. This can be given to any family member.
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
"I'm just a victim of my own liberalhoodedness"  Midnight Target

Offline Toad

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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2003, 09:39:46 AM »
So no wonder Kennedy and Buffett don't worry about income or wealth taxes at all then.

Seems the initial post has a point then, eh?

Sort of the height of hipocracy for Warren and Pat to be downplaying tax cuts then, isn't it?

As F. Scott said, "Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me."

In fact Warren and Frank remind me of the old "let them eat cake" comment so popular in Revolutionary France.........
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline JBA

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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2003, 09:43:42 AM »
Pat Kennedy's income as a congressman is around $140,000. His wealth is estimated at $500 MILLION.

John Kerry (married to Mrs Heinz of Heinz 57) is estimated at $650 million.

Ted Kennedy. see above for he's nephew
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
"I'm just a victim of my own liberalhoodedness"  Midnight Target