Author Topic: AKAK asks the real deal  (Read 1733 times)

Offline Silat

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AKAK asks the real deal
« on: July 26, 2003, 01:27:18 PM »
Great exchange between AKAK and our resident ww2 p47 ace:}


To the best of your knowledge, was it common practice to throttle up or
down one engine to increase manuverability?  The reason I ask is that I
came across this article written by a P-38 pilot that says it wasn't but
I seem to recall guys like Lowell and McGuire throttle up or down one
engine to increase manuverability.  Was there a significant gain in
manuverability in doing so?  I know it's not real life because it's a PC
game but in AH I used a dual throttle for a few months and I myself
never really saw that much of a significant increase in manuverability
other than my hammerheads looked really sharp and have since gone back
to my old Pro Throttle.

Here's the link  of the former P-38 pilot's article.

<http://homepage.tinet.ie/~frontacs/WBStored/P38PilotComments.html>

The rest of the posts are an interesting read themselves, maybe you
could comment on some of those points as well.

ack-ack

EARLS REPLY:

The thought never occurred to me when I flew it.  It was my philosophy
to go full bore when attacking enemy aircraft.  I
wouldn't want to reduce power arbitrarily.  Only a P-38 pilot
sitting in an office chair and staring at a screen monitor
would have time to do all that kind of maneuvering, in my
judgment.

If I were engaging an enemy aircraft, there sure wouldn't be any
"throttle up".  The throttles would be up as far as they could go.

earl
+Silat
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Offline BUG_EAF322

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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2003, 05:03:05 PM »
nice reading
hail the lightning :)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2003, 07:06:08 PM »
The problem is the P-38 pilot in the article he (AKAK) posted the link to is not a P-38 pilot at all, but rather a wannabe fraud. And the guys in the Pacific units DID use differential throttling, as did Erv Ethell and others in Europe. The guy being quoted in the article is NOT Col. George Cueleers who really WAS a P-38 pilot in World War II. WideWing exposed the guy as a fraud sometime ago.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2003, 08:49:26 PM »
So it basically boiled down to the pilot?  Because at least in Earl's case, he never used differential throttle when he fly the P-38G in the MTO.

Ack-Ack
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2003, 08:56:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
So it basically boiled down to the pilot?  Because at least in Earl's case, he never used differential throttle when he fly the P-38G in the MTO.

Ack-Ack


Yes.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2003, 11:46:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
[B WideWing exposed the guy as a fraud sometime ago. [/B]


This sounds interesting, tell us more! :)

Offline Bullethead

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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2003, 11:05:39 AM »
The impression I get from reading books and talking to old pilots who were there is that once they got in a fight situation, it was full power all the way at least 90% of the time.  And when they did reduce power, it was almost always only as a last resort to force an overshoot when they were about to die, not to gain an offensive position.

Granted, this ain't a big sample size so the above assessment could be wrong.  Still, I can see very valid reaons for it to be true and not many for it being false, so I'll go with it.

IIRC, in WW2 something like 80% of fighter kills of other fighters were scored against non-maneuvering targets in surprise BnZ passes.  Actual dogfights against alerted nmes against whom you maneuvered for some time, which is our constant diet in AH, were apparently very rare in WW2.  Once surprise was lost, most times formations went to pieces and both sides withdrew in disorder to reform or land, rather than stay and fight as a bunch of individuals.

That being the case, I can understand wanting to stay fast.  If the biggest threat to you is not seeing the nme coming, then the best defense (apart from having a lot of friends around helping you scan the sky) is to stay as fast as possible, so geometry and relative speed saves you from some of the potential swoops and run-downs.  "Speed is life" and all that.

It also seems a nearly universal human trait that when real bullets are flying, you're way more concerned about personal safety than with killing the nme.  So in most cases, I'd expect guys to NOT sacrifice speed for angles to get a shot.  This in turn would all lead in WW2 to the relative lack of kills in non-surprise situations, the prevalence of HOs due to not using aggressive maneuvering, and the tendency to run for home when you lost contact with your buddies.

That's not to say there weren't individuals who worked the throttle(s) constantly.  But I'd expect they were a very small minority.  From at least 1943 on, most pilots on all sides were products of wartime mass training programs, not long-service professionals.  And in the US at least, many of those who survived were taken off operations after only a few months anyway.  So most guys would have been doing things the quick, easy, and safe way, with a few masters among them getting into the real finesses of ACM.  But even those guys wouldn't have found much opportunity to practice their art in the usual WW2 situations.

We have a totally different situation in the MA, of course.  Thus, we try to exploit all aspects of our rides, not just the top speed.  I wonder if our behavior will change in AH2's TOD arena :)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2003, 11:46:05 AM »
A few things to remember about combat.

About 10% of the pilots got about 90% of the kills. (Numbers may not be exact, but are close). Those in the 10% are in an entirely different group than the rest. Remember to factor in this difference when you are talking about what pilots did and did not do. With all due respect to the average combat pilot (And I have the utmost in respect for anyone who flew in combat and did his job, regardless of his score), what you hear from them is not what you hear from the guys at the top of the list.

The most successful pilots had certain attributes:

Aggressiveness. These are guys who said things like, "A Mig on your six is better than no Mig at all". Before you say "That was different war", the quote came from "Boots" Blesse, who was an ace in both World War II and Korea. These were pilots looking for a fight. They'd rather be outnumbered 3:1 than not see the enemy at all.

Marksmanship. Most, if not nearly all of the top scoring pilots came from a background that promoted marksmanship, and they were excellent shots with pistols and rifles.

Eyesight. The guys with the top scores had eyes that eagles would be jealous of. They could not only spot planes at greater distances, but also identify them as well.

Flying skill. They were excellent pilots who got the most out of whatever they were sitting in.

These weren't guys who'd make one pass and escape to safety, these were guys who'd stay in the fight until the other guy was dead, ran away, or until they lost all hope of getting the kill. These were guys who, when engaged by the enemy in a bounce, would immediately turn and try to kill their enemy if he ever made a mistake and surrendered his advantage.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Bullethead

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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2003, 05:58:23 PM »
Captain Virgil Hilts said:
Quote
About 10% of the pilots got about 90% of the kills. (Numbers may not be exact, but are close). Those in the 10% are in an entirely different group than the rest. Remember to factor in this difference when you are talking about what pilots did and did not do.


Certainly.  But these guys are also the ones who wrote most of the books afterwards.  The pilots who only managed a few kills at most usually didn't write books.  But they made up the vast bulk of the pilots in the war.  So I think it's quite correct to say that in essentially all cases (I mean, look at the rounding you can do here), WW2 pilots on all sides were going as fast as possible all the time at the expense of maneuvering.  But if all you did was read the available books, you might get a different idea.

Besides, even the aces got most of their kills against nmes who never saw them coming.  If 80% of the kills resulted from blindside bounces, and if the aces got 80-90% of the kills scored, what else where they doing?  I mean, that's what great eyes do for you.  You see the nme first, you maneuver into his blind area before he sees you, and then you waste him.  And you survive to keep doing this because you also see potential threats early and get out of the way before they become really dangerous, maybe before the nme even sees you.  Then you can turn the tables.

Superior SA was, IMHO, the main divider between aces and average pilots.  How many aggressive, skillful, dead-eye pilots bought it from a lack of SA?  I kill several such guys every night I fly in AH :).

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2003, 06:52:39 AM »
there was a reason they kept those crates in the PTO - far far away from germany's best pilots :)

akak
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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2003, 10:40:23 AM »
It will be interresting to see how the 38 will do in AH2. I find that in AH(1) the engines are basically holding the wings up at those incredably slow speeds, something Pyro has mentioned would be corrected in AH2 with the advent of a more detailed FM. I guess we all will have to learn how to fly all over again. ;)
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Offline mia389

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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2003, 11:18:47 AM »
HEHE Gs was that you in that 152 when I was in my 38 hangin on the props for the kill, I think it was but not sure hehe <> FBsmokey

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2003, 11:28:34 AM »
Yup :)

I was thinking "stall stall stall STALL STALL STALL!!! DAMMIT!! ... DOH!" :D
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2003, 01:40:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
there was a reason they kept those crates in the PTO - far far away from germany's best pilots :)

akak



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ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2003, 01:43:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
It will be interresting to see how the 38 will do in AH2. I find that in AH(1) the engines are basically holding the wings up at those incredably slow speeds, something Pyro has mentioned would be corrected in AH2 with the advent of a more detailed FM. I guess we all will have to learn how to fly all over again. ;)



From Pyro's comments, it seemed that was more in relation on how they had modeled engine torque in the existing AH.  Which is something that P-38 doesn't have to worry about, so I really don't think the revised flight model will effect the P-38 all that much.  I do think the revised flight model will make the P-38 stand out more at probably as a vertical fighter because planes like the N1K2 will no longer be able to stand on their tails in the vertical without hardly any effect from their engine torque.  

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song