AKAK asks the real deal

[brendo]

Yes, it should fix one of the games biggest shortfalls.

Ive said before that there is no way in real life the Nikki could pull vertical and start sniping people 700 yards away vertically standing on the nose at 100 mph full throttle.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
From Pyro's comments, it seemed that was more in relation on how they had modeled engine torque in the existing AH.  Which is something that P-38 doesn't have to worry about, so I really don't think the revised flight model will effect the P-38 all that much.  I do think the revised flight model will make the P-38 stand out more at probably as a vertical fighter because planes like the N1K2 will no longer be able to stand on their tails in the vertical without hardly any effect from their engine torque.  

ack-ack

Pyro's comments on the new FM:

"One of the major changes we’ve made is how we model the forces on the plane. We wanted to increase the number of force points by about an order of magnitude or even more if necessary. For example, prior to this the wing was split up in large chunks with the applicable forces applied to each chunk. In level steady flight this is fine, but it shows its limitations when you get outside of it. Now we have it split up into a lot of small pieces. This allows us to closely replicate the stall progression characteristics of the different planes. It’s also led us to some oversights in the model. An example of this is the effects on the propeller vortex on the wings. We’re modeling the forces of the vortex and its effect, but we weren’t applying it exactly where it needed to be applied, thereby creating an inaccurate force moment. "

and ...

"One thing that I mentioned with regards to torque is that the propellor slipstream effects on the wings were being placed too far out thus creating an artificially large force moment. This effect counteracts torque to a degree, an overly large degree in AH until now. The propwash from a propellor comes off in a vortex that corkscrews back over the airplane. In a standard clockwise rotating engine, the vortex strikes the right wing with a downward component and the left wing with an upward component. This increases the effective aoa of the left wing and decreases the effective aoa of the right wing, hence more lift on the left wing and less on the right.

The slipstream continues to corkscrew back to the tailplane where it impacts the vertical stabilizer on the left side which pushes the tail to the right and the nose to the left. This is the main force causing the left yaw on your takeoff roll."

[Kweassa]

Gee.. my head hurts..!

 Somebody please translate that to the layman's terms !!

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Gee.. my head hurts..!

 Somebody please translate that to the layman's terms !!

Prop slipstream effects on the wings and tail are to large.

[Kweassa]

Um..

 So, with such delicate improvements in AH2, what kind of changes can we expect? You mentioned some planes will not be able to keep their wings up near stall speeds, and Akak mentions the N1K2 won't be able to do the propr hang?? Why?

 

[Blue Mako]

Kwe:

Pyro is saying there was an error in the way the slipstream effects were handled.  This error countered the engine torque.  Thus the torque effects that you would expect to see were cancelled by the error in the slipstream.

Fix the slipstream modelling error = more noticeable torque effects.

Thus all single engine aircraft will have more apparent torque effects in AH2 but P38 performance will be unchanged as the engines rotate in opposite directions.  All other planes will have trouble hanging on their props.

[Kaz]

Just to add to what others have said. As Pyro mentioned, on a standard clockwise rotating prop  the 'wind' or vortex generated by the prop, upon hitting the right  wing would push it down while pushing the left wing up.
But currently in AH, this vortex is too far out, which is causing a greater force* on the wings than it should, thus negating most of the torque effect.

* Think of a small stone attached to a length of string, if you spin the stone using only a short piece of the string, the 'force' generated isn't that great. If you increase the length of the string, the 'force' increases in proportion.

Currently in AH, the 'string' is too long, generating a larger force than it should i.e. the push down/push up effect on the wings is too great from the vortex being too far out. They plan on bringing the vortex closer in to where it should be, which means less push down/push up on the wings from the vortex and resulting in torque being more prevalent.

Hope my example was right and that this makes some sense.

[GScholz]

And this effect will also aply to the P38. IIRC the P38's left prop turns clockwise while the right one turns anti-clockwise. This means that the prop slipstream will generate lift on the outside of the engine nacelles while reducing lift on the inside. In normal flight this has little effect since the lift is not enough to make the wing stall and the downforce is not enough to cancel out the lift. However when the P38 is flying so slow that the wing is essentially stalled out except for the part of the wing that the prop slipstream is holding up, the downforce on the inside of the nacelles has no effect what so ever, because that part of the wing is already stalled. I.e. you're able to control the P38 solely by the lifting force of the prop slipstream. Now ... if Pyro reduces this lift the P38's über low-speed handling will suffer ... but other planes will of course suffer more since they can't counteract the torque.

[mos]

Originally posted by GScholz
And this effect will also aply to the P38. IIRC the P38's left prop turns clockwise while the right one turns anti-clockwise.

You have that backwards.

[Kaz]

Maybe the p38 will actually get even  more gentle stall characteristics or at least stall at lower speeds.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by mos
You have that backwards.

Yup. The props holds up the inner wings instead of the outer. The rest is still the same.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Kaz
Maybe the p38 will actually get even  more gentle stall characteristics or at least stall at lower speeds.

Nope, don't think so. It should get worse ... like every other prop plane in the game.

[Kaz]

Well I can always hope

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by GScholz
And this effect will also aply to the P38. IIRC the P38's left prop turns clockwise while the right one turns anti-clockwise. This means that the prop slipstream will generate lift on the outside of the engine nacelles while reducing lift on the inside. In normal flight this has little effect since the lift is not enough to make the wing stall and the downforce is not enough to cancel out the lift. However when the P38 is flying so slow that the wing is essentially stalled out except for the part of the wing that the prop slipstream is holding up, the downforce on the inside of the nacelles has no effect what so ever, because that part of the wing is already stalled. I.e. you're able to control the P38 solely by the lifting force of the prop slipstream. Now ... if Pyro reduces this lift the P38's über low-speed handling will suffer ... but other planes will of course suffer more since they can't counteract the torque.

Here's a snippet from a P-38 thread taken from various newsgroups.  Most of the posts are from our very own WideWing.  This should give you some idea of the low speed handling of the P-38.  This is the story of Lowell's famous duel in a P-38H vs. Spitfire XV, where he managed to stay on the Spitfire's six position by stall fighting.

During the late winter of 1944 ocurred the famous dual between a
Griffon-engined Spitfire XV and a P-38H of the 364FG.  Col. Lowell few the P-38, engaging the Spitfire at 5,000 ft. in a head-on pass.  Lowell was able to get on the Spitfire's tail and stay there no matter what the Spitfire pilot did.  Although the Spitfire could execute a tighter turning circle than the P-38, Lowell was able to use the P-38's excellent stall characteristics to repeatedly pull inside the Spit's turn radius and ride the stall, then back off outside the Spit's turn, pick up speed and cut back in again in what he called a "cloverleaf" maneuver.  After 20 minutes of this, at 1,000 ft. altitude, the Spit tried a Spit-S (at a 30-degree
angle, not vertically down).  Lowell stayed with the Spit through the maneuver, although his P-38 almost hit the ground.  After that the Spitfire pilot broke off the engagement and flew home.  This contest was witnessed by 75 pilots on the ground.

Ack-Ack

[GScholz]

Spit XV? that's a Seafire isn't it?

Anyways, I don't know what you're trying to argue here (if you are). I'm just saying that in AH2 the P38 will prolly be less forgiving at very low speeds, however every other plane will also be less forgiving, so the P38 will hold it edge. Just that speeds will have to be a bit higher for all.