Author Topic: Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!  (Read 1415 times)

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!
« on: July 30, 2003, 02:57:46 PM »
Story here
Just have to give Bday
U.S. Adopts Aggressive Tactics on Iraqi Fighters

Intensified Offensive Leads To Detentions, Intelligence

By Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, July 28, 2003; Page A01


BAGHDAD -- Over the past six weeks a small but intense war has been conducted in the mud-hut villages and lush palm groves along the Tigris River valley, fought with far different methods than those used in the campaign that toppled president Saddam Hussein.

As Iraqi fighters launched guerrilla strikes, the U.S. Army adopted a more nimble approach against unseen adversaries and found new ways to gather intelligence about them, according to dozens of soldiers and officers interviewed over the last week.

Thousands of suspected Iraqi fighters were detained over the six-week period, many temporarily, in hundreds of U.S. military raids, most of them conducted in the dead of night. In the expansive region north of Baghdad patrolled by the 4th Infantry Division, more than 300 Iraqi fighters were killed in combat operations, the military officials said. In the same period, U.S. forces in all of Iraq have suffered 39 combat deaths. The continuing casualties -- such as the four soldiers killed Saturday -- are the direct result of the intensified U.S. offensive, the military officials added.

Despite their losses, Army officers and soldiers asserted that they are making solid gains in this region, where most of the fighting has taken place and where about half the 150,000 U.S. troops in the country are posted.

At the beginning of June, before the U.S. offensives began, the reward for killing an American soldier was about $300, an Army officer said. Now, he said, street youths are being offered as much as $5,000 -- and are being told that if they refuse, their families will be killed, a development the officer described as a sign of reluctance among once-eager youths to take part in the strikes.

At the same time, the frequency of attacks has declined in the area northwest of Baghdad dominated by Iraq's Sunni minority, long a base of support for Hussein. In this triangle-shaped region -- delineated by Baghdad, Tikrit to the north and the towns of Fallujah and Ramadi to the west -- attacks on U.S. forces have dropped by half since mid-June, military officers reported.

That decrease is leading senior commanders here to debate whether the war is nearly over. Some say the resistance by members of Hussein's Baath Party is nearly broken. But other senior officers are bracing for a new phase in which they fear that Baathist die-hards, with no alternative left, will shift from attacking the U.S. military to bombing American civilians and Iraqis who work with them.

In addition, there is general agreement among Army leaders here that in recent weeks both the quality and quantity of intelligence being offered by Iraqis has greatly improved, leading to such operations as the one last Tuesday in Mosul that killed Hussein's sons, Uday and Qusay.

Col. David Hogg, commander of the 2nd Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division, said tougher methods are being used to gather the intelligence. On Wednesday night, he said, his troops picked up the wife and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general. They left a note: "If you want your family released, turn yourself in." Such tactics are justified, he said, because, "It's an intelligence operation with detainees, and these people have info." They would have been released in due course, he added later.

The tactic worked. On Friday, Hogg said, the lieutenant general appeared at the front gate of the U.S. base and surrendered.


The U.S. Offensive


In the weeks after President Bush declared an end to major combat operations in Iraq on May 1, there were growing signs of resistance in the Sunni triangle, where many former Baath Party operatives, intelligence officers and Special Republican Guard members were still actively fighting the U.S. military.

There is more, should I post it?

Offline Mickey1992

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3362
Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2003, 03:02:56 PM »

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
Mickey
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2003, 03:17:23 PM »
Thanks

OOOPs!

Offline Erlkonig

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2003, 04:21:39 PM »
This strategy of hostage taking is apparently a violation of the Geneva Convention.  I'm not so sure this is an activity deserving of our praise...

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2003, 04:36:43 PM »
If it saves american lives and no one is hurt I am all for it.

Offline DiabloTX

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9592
Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2003, 04:42:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Erlkonig
This strategy of hostage taking is apparently a violation of the Geneva Convention.  I'm not so sure this is an activity deserving of our praise...


Hmmm...true.  But what are they?  Hostages or detainees?

One entry found for detainee.
 

Main Entry: de·tain·ee
Pronunciation: di-"tA-'nE, "dE-
Function: noun
Date: circa 1928
: a person held in custody especially for political reasons


One entry found for hostage.
 

Main Entry: hos·tage
Pronunciation: 'häs-tij
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from hoste
Date: 13th century
1 a : a person held by one party in a conflict as a pledge that promises will be kept or terms met by the other party b : a person taken by force to secure the taker's demands
2 : one that is involuntarily controlled by an outside influence

I agree if they are violating the GC they need to stop.  But if the people are being detained and are well treated I have no problem with this tactic saving Coalition Forces' lives.
"There ain't no revolution, only evolution, but every time I'm in Denmark I eat a danish for peace." - Diablo

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2003, 04:49:44 PM »
I would say detainee, we are NOT threatening them in any way.

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2003, 05:29:47 PM »
well , i think if the USA is violating the Geneva Convention, saddam should go to the UN and file a protest.

BTW, did saddam sign the Geneva Conventions?

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2003, 05:42:49 PM »
GScholz
 The difference is we are not saying "give in to our demands in 8 hours or they die."

Offline Russian

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2992
Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2003, 05:46:34 PM »
IMO, WTG USA. :)

Offline DiabloTX

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9592
Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2003, 05:53:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
No there is no such difference. The implied threat was that if this Iraqi General didn't surrender the US would "detain" his family indefinitely.


 

If I locked your loved ones in my basement and held them for ransom, surrounding my house with a powerful army so that no escape or rescue attempt would be feasible, wouldn't that be kidnapping and hostage taking?


No, read it again:

" They would have been released in due course, he added later."

They were detained much like a policeman does when he needs an eyewitness or information on a subject.  I doubt that guns were pointed to their heads, hands cuffed together and they were dragged out of their houses.  

Besides, if I was killing people that were trying to restore order and peace in an area such as Iraq my family would just say shot ME!
"There ain't no revolution, only evolution, but every time I'm in Denmark I eat a danish for peace." - Diablo

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
GScholz
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2003, 06:00:56 PM »
I how did I know you would come back with that...

An implied threat that we will not follow through on is not the same as a terrorist threat from a terrorist who WILL kill their hostages without a second though.

The family is not going to be harmed hell I bet they are living better then they where before.

Offline DiabloTX

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9592
Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2003, 06:04:15 PM »
It's called bluffing and the Iraqi General fell for it.  The American commander said, and I quoted in my last post, that they were going to be freed eventually anyway.

If I witness something that is a crime, the police can detain me because I have information that could lead to an arrest.  No, there are no "threats" made on me but they can make life really boring if I don't cooperate.  They will, however, have to release me eventually.  So it's not BS, its a tactic that worked and in the long run probably saved lives.
"There ain't no revolution, only evolution, but every time I'm in Denmark I eat a danish for peace." - Diablo

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2003, 06:09:22 PM »
It better then blowing people up. Soldiers are a different manor anyway.

If it saves U.S. lives then I am all for it. You don't like it get your country to start a war on terror and them come get us. :D

Offline BGBMAW

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2288
Hmm our troops took a page from Devils Guard!
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2003, 06:10:41 PM »
excellent job US soldiers ....salute...and allah - god-jah bless you:)

BiGB