Author Topic: The Void between Machine guns and cannons. (Read 9951 times)

Tony Williams · « **Reply #60 on:** August 04, 2003, 08:36:56 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by niklas
I´m still convinced that Hispona shells are overmoddeld for long range shots, and Mg-151 rounds probably undermodelled. But as long as i don´t know the exact velocity in AH of each shell at 100 and for example 1000 yards i can´t make an exact proof.

Qoute from 'Flying Guns: WW2':

"German information from a different source document indicated that HS 404 HET shells slowed from 880 to 675 m/s at 300 m and about 500 m/s at 600 m, reductions of 23 % and 43 % respectively."

In contrast, the 20 mm HE-T (117g) from an MG 151 was doing around 540 and 410 m/s respectively at the same distances, while the 92g M-Geschoss was doing 490 and 310 m/s.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

Wilbus · « **Reply #61 on:** August 04, 2003, 09:17:02 AM »

Hehehe, I was at 850 yards on your spit 14's six when you pulled up in a loop, let the guns in the A20 play and and put a good 1-2 second burts in your wing

thrila · « **Reply #62 on:** August 04, 2003, 11:07:30 AM »

Git!:D

F4UDOA · « **Reply #63 on:** August 04, 2003, 12:00:39 PM »

Geez,

1. Please don't turn this into a Luftwaffa is undermodeled thread. That is not what this is and there is enough of that going right now. See other thread for that.

2. This is not a whine about Hizooka's. I rarely get killed by them, in fact the majority of cannon armed dweebs are not hispano, they are Japanese in the NIK2 or Russian in the La-7. The ones that bother me the most are in the NIK2 much more than the C-Hog.

The Fact is

Most pilots in wartime never fired unless they were right on top of their targets. 150meters or less.

Bullets of many calibers can and did "bounce off". Just because it doesn't seem feasable doesn't mean it can't happen. I have read reports from pilots on all fronts reporting this. Are they all full of Sh*t? Or do we think we know to much? A rock skipping off of water is a good analogy.

And another thing

I don't care if someone has a mine shell or a howizter shell. You may know the exact force of the explosion but the damage done to the target is 100% subjective. Frankly I find the damage model in the TA more realistic, more challenging and more enjoyable. But it is my opinion and I can back it up with as much annecdotal evidence as anybody.

In WW2 there were many reports of pilots landing on carriers with up to 40 cannon holes in them. This is not only unlikely it is impossible in AH for this to happen. In AH one hit from an Osty at any range is death. IRL many fighters absorded hits from high caliber AA and returned home. I have never survived a hit from an osty.

IMHO the damage model needs a major overhaul in AH.

Everything from .30cal buff guns severing wings at 500 yards to A6M5's that take more damage than any American Navy plane.

Tone the hits down and the game becomes more ACM intensive and less HO and front quarter reliant.

AcId · « **Reply #64 on:** August 04, 2003, 01:17:36 PM »

F4UDOA,

The -1's stats for last tour are negatively skewed, I didn't fly it much last tour. I apologize for any confusion this may have caused and for any false impressions regarding it's performance....I'm back in it this tour....carry on.

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #65 on:** August 04, 2003, 01:27:50 PM »

And... ...do we want damage to be halved farther than 300 yards just to accomodate our air combat to WW2 standars? I want.

niklas · « **Reply #66 on:** August 04, 2003, 02:19:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tony Williams
Qoute from 'Flying Guns: WW2':

"German information from a different source document indicated that HS 404 HET shells slowed from 880 to 675 m/s at 300 m and about 500 m/s at 600 m, reductions of 23 % and 43 % respectively."

And what do you think, does the AH HS shell slows down to 43% at 600m?? Imo not. Because i think they made a serious mistake. I know that there´s a AP chart around. Imo HTC raised the curve simply to higher muzzle velocity. but the AP round is heavier and has better shape. So IMO (!!) and without any serious proof i assume that the HS shell in AH has the higher muzzle velocity of the HE shell compared to the AP shell (faster acceleration in the barrel, lighter), but NOT the faster decellaration in the air once it flies, and NOT the worse aerodynamics of the flat nose.

On the other hand, we all know that there´s a german mine shell velocity chart out there. The mine shell has higher muzzle velocity than the HE shell, but once in air it slows down faster - less mass simply. Now what happens when we drop the curve down to the initial velocity of the HE shell? Lower muzzle velocity AND bad trajectory.

This is my theory, HTC may check it if i´m right, without their data i can´t check it whether i´m correct or not.

niklas

F4UDOA · « **Reply #67 on:** August 04, 2003, 03:14:04 PM »

Mandoble,

I could care less about ballistics. I care about the damage caused by each round.

We are bombarded with infra red and gamma rays from the sun everyday. But is does not blow big pieces of us off. The sun is not porked, thats just the way it is.

The cannons in AH could be accurate to 2,000yards, it doesn't mean your wing should fall off everytime they hit you.

Steve · « **Reply #68 on:** August 04, 2003, 03:22:20 PM »

I love this game, it's so much more fun than Pong.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #69 on:** August 04, 2003, 03:53:23 PM »

Quote

I could care less about ballistics. I care about the damage caused by each round.

damn that might have to make a signature.

FYI ballistics is the main factor in determining the damage caused by a given round. (even a HE rounds damage will be determined by how far it's ballistics will allow it to penitrate). you can't have a realistic discusion on damage without discusing ballistics.

Hooligan · « **Reply #70 on:** August 04, 2003, 04:04:18 PM »

Ballistics in the game seem to be modelled very well. This makes it easy not to care about it for most people. Most people only want things fixed if they are broken.

It constantly amuses me to see how many people cannot seperate the issues of per-round lethality from ballistics. I have never seen a well done test of the AH guns which showed much difference in the per-round damage inflicted by hispano shells vs. Mg151 shells. Of course, the much better ballistics of the Hispano rounds means that is significantly easier to hit with more of them, particularly at longer ranges... But this simple fact confuses a lot of people.

Hooligan

capt. apathy · « **Reply #71 on:** August 04, 2003, 04:11:48 PM »

Quote

It constantly amuses me to see how many people cannot seperate the issues of per-round lethality from ballistics.

because the issues cannot be separated. a round does 'x' damage at 100 meters, how much should it do at 600 meters?

still doing 'x'? no it wouldn't but how much less? the damage would change (decrease as the range is extended), and the degree of change would be determined by things like mussel velocity, weight of the round, drag coefficients, or in a word ballistics.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #72 on:** August 04, 2003, 04:16:18 PM »

to those who know much more about this game than I do. does the damage model take into account the angle at which a round hits. or would a round impacting at a 45 deg angle have the same damage as one that lands perpendicular to the surface

Toad · « **Reply #73 on:** August 04, 2003, 04:50:15 PM »

Well, it depends on which Pong.

The German version of Pong had much better machining on the face of the paddles to give a much truer bounce and the balls were true spheres of much more consistent density. Thus, you got much more accurate gameplay.

The US version use the sloppy massed produce paddles and pong balls of dubious quality.

AVRO1 · « **Reply #74 on:** August 04, 2003, 05:04:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by capt. apathy
to those who know much more about this game than I do. does the damage model take into account the angle at which a round hits. or would a round impacting at a 45 deg angle have the same damage as one that lands perpendicular to the surface

Im pretty sure it does not.

It is very hard, almost impossible, to create an accurate DM.
Penetration before an HE shell goes of is important but how do you calculate it.
You could give damage from velocity to the round and then add explosive damage.
Maybe thats what they do currently.
That could explain the Hispano power.
Its not accurate though.
What you would need to do is place the explosion at the right place on the plane by penetration.

Does anyone know how they calculate damage in AH?