Author Topic: The Void between Machine guns and cannons.  (Read 10923 times)

Offline Westy

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #300 on: August 22, 2003, 01:01:32 PM »
I saw HiTech's post and wanted to see what he wrote. But hot damn Hooligan. You hit the nail on the head as to exaclty how I feel also. And it's gratifying to see HiTech say that is just what they try to do.  

 Although I could (well, do and will) quibble about some of the features they have put in, or are missing, and the general lack of any new "realism" features added to AH over the the past couple of years.  My hopes lay with what cometh in AH II.  AH-TOD or Classic matters not for it's more or less just AH, circa 1999-2002, with new graphics and canned missions in a new persistant arena then I'll be dissapointed. A lot.

 All IMO this is.

Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #301 on: August 22, 2003, 01:22:54 PM »
Batz:

If you are saying FB is right and AH is wrong, then please provide some proof.  HTC has been great about changing simulation aspects of the game when provided with hard data supporting the change.

If you are saying that you prefer FB because long range shooting is harder (regardless of whether this is accurate) then why don't you just fly FB?

And "learning to shoot" in AH doesn't count if you flew WBs for years before that.  I think I got a kill my first AH sortie, but the gunnery skills I used came from hundreds of hours of practice in WB.  Somebody who has never flown flight sims before doesn't have much of a chance of shooting somebody in AH before they've had hours of practice at it.

Hooligan

Offline Batz

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« Reply #302 on: August 22, 2003, 01:51:54 PM »
Tell me what you think I need to provide proof of?

That in ah effective kill range is longer then rl?

Even you said that but claim its all "skillz". I believe even Toad and HT said that as well.

Try reading the thread.

I said fb and ah have similiar ballistics. I said that in Fb without all the visual aids that effective kill range fits right in with rl pilot accounts and period training material.

I posted training manual that shows that atleast lw pilots were trained to get  in close. Hohun and Tony also posted "proof" as well.

So tell me what proof do you need considering you already acknowledged that effective kill range is longer in ah then rl? I said I believe based on my own experience flying only lw planes that kill range is 450-550 yrds. Thats killing and being killed. In FB its around 250.

range counters, extremely visible tracers out at range, hit sprites and ammo counters and a simplified dm in ah are imo the cause of a longer effective kill ranges in ah.

These are mostly absent in fb. So 2 games with similiar ballistics have different results. In Fb my hit % is higher then it was in ah. My hits per kill is lower etc. All this is a product of getting in close. A hisso will still hurt you in Fb at d800 just as it will in ah. Just in fb the odds of getting hit at d800 are much lower.

Also as brady stated about his "talk" with pyro that atleast with the type 99 mk 1 somethings "wrong". How that translates to similiar rounds like the mgff or if any other round is effected is unkown. But to say "ah got it right" is a stretch. But this is besides the point.

You claim its all skillz.

Prove to me its "skillz". Where's your proof?

:rolleyes:

Its about how well you aim. Imo its much easier to "aim" in ah. As I pointed out I dont even need a gun site in ah.

I also said repeatedly I dont care if HT changes his game or not. I dont fly in main not because of "gunnery" but because of crappy gameplay. Even in my last post I said I dont care one way or the other.

Offline hitech

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« Reply #303 on: August 22, 2003, 01:59:02 PM »
And if FB dosn't model dispersion? And if it fires guns at exatly the same time, every bullet? Could these be less realist things that make gunnery artiflicilay difficult ?

HiTech

Offline Mathman

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« Reply #304 on: August 22, 2003, 02:27:56 PM »
Well, after reading this thread for the last week or so, I figured I would chime in.

IMO, it is not the ballistics or gunnery that account for the difference between AH and Il-2/FB.  It is ultimately the flight model which causes the difference in gunnery to appear between the two sims.

In AH:
The planes seem stable and minor variations in trim are easier to deal with.

In Il-2:
The planes are much more squirrely when trying to aim.

What it boils down to is that in Il-2, the planes bounce around more.  Is this artificially put in to recreate the historic kill and hit distance?  Hell if I know.  Is AH wrong?  Don't know, don't care.  I have fun with both and kill stuff in both.

If you are that bothered by the gunnery in AH, you might want to think about whether AH is worth the $$$ to stay.

Offline Batz

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« Reply #305 on: August 22, 2003, 04:59:23 PM »
Quote
And if FB dosn't model dispersion? And if it fires guns at exatly the same time, every bullet? Could these be less realist things that make gunnery artiflicilay difficult ?


I dunno HT I only fly 109s firing just the hub cannon. Dispersion isnt something I worry about.

I am not sure what "fires guns at exactly the same time" means. Do you mean all guns share the same rof or say on a Jug each of the 8 50s fire bullets at exactly the same time?

I guess i can go find out.

I am not sure why it should make gunnery harder. Wouldnt no dispersion mean more rounds concentrated in 1 spot? I am not sure about the size of the "cone". Actually would it make lethal damage "easier".

I dont think Fb gunnery is "hard" and I dont have the nose bounce problem mathman says. Thats most likely stick scaling.

For example  flying an f2 against a il2 field mod you need to aim at the oil cooler to make the best use of your ammo. If not unless you kill the pilot or disable controls the thing just doesnt go down. 3 or 4 hits to the oil coller starts a fire. You have to aim with a bouncy stick you most likely would never hit it.

Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #306 on: August 22, 2003, 06:57:05 PM »
Batz:

I don't have anything to prove to you and you don't have anything to prove to me.

But if you want HTC to change something, then you will have to prove it to them.  It doesn't look to me like you have convinced them at all so far, so perhaps you should try a different tact, like providing some tangible proof.  Personally I always like to see more hard data posted on the BBS.  I'm looking forward to seeing what you provide.

As far as kill ranges being farther in AH than they are in real life.  Well the real life pilots had very little practice compared to us and they didn't even know what range they were shooting at.  This combined with other factors like stress (we aren't worried about dying, a luxury that real pilots did not have) these seem like more than an abundant explanation of the perceived and real differences to me.

Hooligan

Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #307 on: August 22, 2003, 07:07:21 PM »
Batz:

Dispersion does affect the hub cannon (not as much as wing guns of course).  For a 200 meter target, in one game perhaps the hub cannon makes a 2 meter pattern at that range while the pattern may only be 3 centimeters in the other game (i.e. no dispersion).

6 wing-mounted 50's make a pretty huge cone of fire at 600 yards with dispersion.  You're point of aim can be off by 5-10 meters and the dispersion cone is going to be so big that you will still get scattered hits.  With no dispersion, if your aim is off you won't get hits.

Dispersion makes it much easier to hit at longer range, although the hits will be widely scattered and do much less damage than if they were concentrated due to a lack of dispersion.

Hooligan
« Last Edit: August 22, 2003, 08:15:06 PM by Hooligan »

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #308 on: August 23, 2003, 09:19:29 AM »
I think the real problem with porking the ballistics just for the hell of it is that it would have a HUGE impact on the way this game is played.  

Take two minutes and think about it.  If the ballistics is messed with so it is literally impossible to kill people past a range of 400 yards or so, what will happen in the arena?  Would it mostly effect the dogfighters or the Bore and Zoomers?  I'm gonna go smoke while you think about it, back in five.

Ok, back.  Now, lets think about it some more (don't worry, I didn't get it right away either).  Here's the way my thinking went.  Well, in a dogfight it won't effect you much, since you are usually closer than 400 yards anyway.  Well, thats a good thing.  Now... those stupid Bore and Zoomers that take 6-700 yard shots and then break off.. they wouldn't be able to bug me anymore, and they'd have to learn how to fight!  Damn, another good thing... I'm all for this.  

Hum...  well, given the dweebishness of your average player, here is what I think would happen.  If the gunnery was porked, it would have exactly the opposite effect I thought it would have at first glance.  Instead of people learning how to fight, they'd learn how to hit a snapshot at 400 yards and run like hell, instead of trying to hit a snapshot at 700 yards and run like hell.  And if it was made literally impossible to score hits at ranges past 400 yards, they'd be untouchable.  In other words, the MA would become an even more boring place.

The only real "solution" to the "problem" of people scoring hits at "ahistorical" ranges, would be to remove range counters inside of d1.5 or so, and HT's already said that ain't going to happen.  So I'd learn to live with it, it isn't that big a deal as far as I'm concerned.

Offline MANDOBLE

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« Reply #309 on: August 23, 2003, 10:27:26 AM »
Nah Urchin, that cant be implemented because it surely is a dark maneouver to improve the advantages of my D9 ...

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #310 on: August 24, 2003, 03:05:22 AM »
Quote
As far as kill ranges being farther in AH than they are in real life. Well the real life pilots had very little practice compared to us and they didn't even know what range they were shooting at. This combined with other factors like stress (we aren't worried about dying, a luxury that real pilots did not have) these seem like more than an abundant explanation of the perceived and real differences to me.


 And that, comes with a 'tangible evidence'?

 So how would we measure the "skill differences" between real life WW2 pilots and us? By pure flight time? What "skill"?


 By the "ballistics theory" of mid-long range gunnery of AH a la Toad, there isn't any 'skill' to be master anyway. The "dispersion" increases hit chance even more.  Since AH planes are "on rails", you just center the sight smack top of the enemy and pull the trigger, and they will die. Point, and click, put enough rounds.. and then the dispersion will automatically it the target for you.

 So..

 What "skill?"

 Skill of judging distance? No, we don't need that in AH.

 Skill of fine tuning aim in conjunction against "target drift"? Not in AH, where combat-trim is available for everyone, and planes fly on rails.

 Skill of concentration, so you can keep track of your rounds and decide when to fire and not? No, we have ammo counters doing that for us.

 Skill of judging lead? Well, yes, this one is definately a skill-related issue. However, not relevant in this instance, where the discussion of 'hit ranges' usually revolve upon hitting conditions against something straight and level. (ie. quotations on Mr.William's "General Rule of Thumb" on gunnery effectivity)

 Besides, even with those "more experience and skill" you people claim that we have, people usually suck in deflection shots in AH anyway. Funny how this one doesn't just increase with longer flight time.

 
 No. I don't see any "skill" concerning mid-long range gunnery in AH. All I see is the "gun" factor and the "spray amount" factor, which in real life the former was never a concern for anyone, even in the country which had access to only inferior weapons, and the latter was a heavy burden for pilots without access to keep accurate track of their number of rounds fired.

 "We're better than WW2 pilots because we have more experience?" No.. that doesn't sound right.

 More like "We're better than WW2 pilots because we don't deal with what they had to deal with."
« Last Edit: August 24, 2003, 03:12:00 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #311 on: August 24, 2003, 07:14:39 AM »
Kweassa, just how much flight time do you have? How much in WW2 aircraft of any type?

I see this "fly on rails" thing as if the writers think aircraft hop and wallow about the sky as if they are rabbits on LSD.

The only wandering aircraft I've flown have been a couple of homebuilts.

The reputable aircraft I've flown, particularly the WW2 aircraft, have ALL flown as if they were "on rails". They're very stable, extremely "hands off" trimmable and a pleasure to fly.

You've done an admirable job of winning friends and influencing people when HT did post in this thread. So maybe like Hooli said you should just fly IL; I don't think your approach has payed off here.
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Offline 4510

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« Reply #312 on: August 24, 2003, 09:11:51 AM »
Ah.. is this the time to mention the 1.6 bomber guns?  Attacking a bomber last night with a countryman.  We are getting ready to go in.  He (fortunately) has the attack from the rear position.  I am coming in from the side.

The gunner opens up at 1.9 on him and he comments with a snicker on VOX..   "He opens up at 1.9"  

I go..." that's ok.. you should be fine til you are well inside 1.6 at least.. they tested it extensively online.... no worries just wiggle a little"

Well at 1.6 he takes a pilot wound.  He is less than amused with our test results.  :)

Ah.. can I get some of these rails for my FWs?  Mine like to "bounce" around some!

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #313 on: August 24, 2003, 11:11:14 AM »
Ah Toad, Toad.

 Let's not go there, because that's as low as it gets when it comes to discussing these sort of things - "hey, if you like brand X better, then just go play that"

 IL2/FB is a different type of game from AH. AH has its own charms which no other game has(or at least, tried to match but failed). However, it does have a common point in that they both recreate the air combat of WWII.

 I don't want to go and spend my time in IL2/FB. It has some fantastic good points, but AH, despite lacking in many things(at least, IMO), is what I ultimately choose over anything else.

 What I want is to see AH become strongly reinforced and powered up in some of the aspect it lacks compared to IL2/FB - and as an IL2/FB player also, I wish the same with Il2/FB too, seeing the experienced professional touches AH gameplay influencing the currently bland nature of IL2/FB multiplayer sessions(IOW or VOW is nice, but it's just not AH!).

 The competitive nature of the market always brings forth many contendors. Emphasizing the differences and unique qualities in each game is good, but as much, I figure better results can come from two contendors, or rather, two games which are oriented to simular goals when they learn and influence each other.

 Looking back this long thread, I apologize to HT if those aspirations and wishes sounded rude and insensitive for the developer.

 Though each responses revolving on feelings and the desire to convince the other has brought forth a heated debate, I think it wasn't all that bad. It was more than just complaints or whining, but a good chance to represent what some of the players think, opposed to what other type of players also think.

 Your vision of what is good for AH maybe different, but ultimately, like you, I just want to see AH becoming better and better all the time, and it was a chance to express some of the thoughts I've had for a long time since I've started out with AHv1.5. So really, your "then go play that(.. and don't come here complaining)" comment was uncalled for! ;)

 Anyhow, we still have AH2 coming, and from some of the info, I think maybe some of the issues me and Batz noted during this discussion, already might have been implemented, such as better DM and more realistic tracer smoke and etc..

 I guess we'll just have to wait and find out.

 But in the mean time, I would appreciate it if you really don't say things like "go play that, then". It's AH I really like. Please think it as jealousy and desire towards IL2/FB to see AH become even better.

 ..

 carry on!


ps) .. nope no flight time in any plane. No training, I'm a complete layman. But Toad, how about you? Any stick time while actually pulling the trigger and feeling the burst of multiple guns vibrate your plane?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2003, 11:16:18 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #314 on: August 24, 2003, 11:44:35 AM »
I gave it some thought.. what the 'target drift' mentioned before, might be.. There were some explanations from Hohun during the thread, but I failed to get an answer from Mr.Williams who first brought it up - wish he'd be back to clarify this.

 Okay, so basically, this is what I imagine.

 I'm thinking of something like what happens to a person holding up a bow or a gun in archery or shooting contests.

 Basically, like mentioned by many other pilot accounts, I don't think the 'nose bounce' messing up aim is realistic. Or rather, upto a certain point.

 Unless a plane is badly out of trim, or a sim depicting that aspect is wildly exaggerated, I wouldn't think moving the nose of one's plane to a certain general direction would cause the bobbing around - like, when you hold up your bow or a gun, your arm stays rock solid, you hold it firm. Your arms don't shake up and down like a scarecrow - which, in a simulated plane, would be equivalent of the nose bobbing up and down with each stick input.

 But, in archery(I dunno about gunnery - guns out of special purposes are illegal in our country, and we don't have shooting ranges), what differentiates the expert marksmen and a poor marksmen is how long you can remain absolutely immobile as you aim and let go of the arrow.

 When you aim a point, there are minor movements, shakes, trembling of your arms caused by many things such as tension and breathing. So, while the general direction of where you hold up and point your weapon lies pretty much immobile, minor and small movements still happen continuously, influencing your point of aim.

 If you don't concentrate while holding up your weapon, you'll soon realize that the point where you are aiming at right now, has actually moved from your original targetting point. Very small movement, but significant enough to effect the outcome of the aim.

 So, maybe the "target drift" mentioned, or issues on "flying on rails" is something like that..??

 In the original IL-2, there admittably was difficulty in aiming through what Mathman has mentioned in this thread - the super sensitive trim issues kept attempts to keep the  general heading of the plane itself unstable. Also, the high loss of E and generally low speed/acceleration of the planes, left fighters in IL-2 flying at pathetically low speeds - 1944 fighters, in general combat, were flying around at something like 300~400km/h.. slight contest of maneuvering often resulted in the planes going 200~220km/h. So these issues also made IL-2 gunnery very difficult, as planes destabilized more during near stall speeds.

 However, most of those issues were corrected in the FB add-on. In general management and maneuvering, the feel of the planes became very simular to AH as a whole.

 But the minor disturbances and movements during maneuvering remained - they are unnoticeable while just maneuvering, but at the moment where you start to aim, the very very small but continuous movement keeps 'drifting' the target around, and becomes a noticeable factor at the moment of opening up. Machine gun fire is pretty stable(I can hit up to 400 meters or so, even in FB, if I concentrate a lot, spray a lot, and the target flies straight and level), but the vibrations of cannons influence the 'minor movements' a bit more. Larger cannons, from 30mm and upper, have even more distinct effect while shooting.

 If I remember correctly, the 'vibration' of the gunfire in AH does not influence the gunnery itself. I think it was a cosmetic feature added in  where you feel it only in the cockpit as the 'camera' shakes, to give you an illusion that the platform you are flying, is shaking due to recoil. However, in FB, the shakes, aren't just the screen shaking, mimicking the recoil effect. It comes from the plane itself, which influences your aim if held on for too long.

 So, basically, that is my answer to "flying on rails" in AH. I admit, this one is a lot of pure speculation.... so please correct me on this one. More references, experiences, clarifications, please.