Author Topic: I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?  (Read 2686 times)

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2003, 09:48:27 PM »
Kweassa,

Yes, but if Billy Bob runs into another Billy Bob, that completely throws out the question of whether it is the pilot or the plane.

If you are looking at it from that perspective why ask the question?  The answer can only be one thing.

If the question being asked is, as you seem to contend, actually "When two average pilots fight, is the pilot or the plane the determining factor?" then of course the plane will be the determining factor.  That very question removes the pilot from the equasion by insisting that we use two average pilots in our theoretical test case.

Pilot skill only comes into the question when we consider the specific pilots and the phrasing of the original question "Plane or Pilot?" demands that we do just that.

Obviously Karnak in an La-7 vs Karnak in a Spitfire Mk I or Fester in an A6M2 vs Fester in a P-38L doesn't tell us squat about anything except that some planes are obviously better than others.  There is no question when that assumption is made.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2003, 11:53:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BigMax
The plane factors heavily into the mix, however, I agree with Urchin that success or failure in a given situation is dictated more by pilot ability and less by airframe.

 


His arguement is the opposite.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2003, 12:27:16 AM »
Not at all, Karnak.

 It is merely about the usual odds in an environment which the conditions are random. The battle field is random, and yet, still has some probabilities being higher than others.

 You can't determine who you are going to fight, in what circumstances. (...actually, if you have a better plane, THAT will allow you to determine those circumstances. The pilot, cannot do that. Only the plane can do that.)

 In that sense, the probability of meeting a pilot with skills that would overcome initial disadvantage in plane or tactical condition is is almost unlikely. Meeting them is like playing the lottery. In a mixed up lotto-world of AH, usually the numbers will be for "Billy Bob", almost never "Drex" or "Leviathan" or "Fester".  

 Also, the probability of the average "me" in this game, being a pilot skillful enough to overcome advantages, is also very low. How many of us mediocre guys fly out there on the battling skies thinking "I know I'm better than most"?

 ...

 So what happens? Everybody knows they are Billy Bob. They also know the odds are, they will meet another Billy Bob. So, that would probably mean neither I, nor him, would be skillful enough.

 What is the most reasonable solution to gain advantage in this conflict?

a) learn more skill. So I am confident in any plane
b) get a better plane


 Compared to solution b), solution a) is way too unstable. You can't measure your skill in numbers or units. Everything is always relative, and even if you practice a lot, you still can meet a genuine Drex or Levi or Fester or Karnak flying atound. Also, no matter how skilled you are, a sudden change of pace can lead to your doom.

 Soooo.. the reasonable answer, is simple.

1) Me Billy Bob, will be killed anyway, if I ever meet a genuine Drex/Fester/Levi/Karn in a good plane.. but if I am in a hot-rod plane, at least I can run away if for any chance those Drex/Fester/Levi/Karns are not in a speed demon.

2) Besides, me Billy Bob, has significant advantage over enemy Billy Bobs who aren't using a good plane.

3) So, if enemy Billy Bob also rides in a good plane, at least the odds are 50:50. If enemy Billy Bob comes out in a sucky plane, the odds are for me. If I go out in a sucky plane, the odds are overwhelmingly against me.

4) The most reasonable solution with quick results - plane. Not the pilot.

 Now, imagine a war full of Billy Bobs on both sides. Yup. Planes make more difference than Pilots. (but in that situation, numbers make more difference than both Planes and Pilots combined.. but that is for another equation..)


 Of course, in a limited environment with limited conditions.. for instance, the CT with few people, planes with generally equal performance.. then, the pilot factor suddenly becomes very important. But only in those situations.

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2003, 12:44:03 AM »
It's the pilot. I've found myself completely outmatched by people like DMF or Lephturn on engagements where I felt I had either an advantage, a superior aircraft, or both.

Quote
"The guy who wins is the guy who makes the fewer gross mistakes." -LT Jim "Huck" Harris, USN
sand

Offline Drex

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 627
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2003, 01:07:18 AM »
Well at least we know that both pilot and plane are neccesary for getting a kill. This is a good subject to debate but one that will not allow you to create some factual formula on aircombat.   People can name why a certain plane is better with statistical data. This climbs at such and such, and this at 250mph will do a 180 in this many seconds(btw if you find yourself looking at the gauges during a fight your missing the boat. :) ) We know what the planes are good at, so lets instead break down what makes up pilot ability.  When you start talking about the pilot and you mention SA and Energy Managment then start to break those down.  By the time you see how important the pilot is you will have one hell of a training manual.  

Urchin,

For now I'll go with your percentages of what determines a
fight, but can I add a little chaos to your numbers.  I say the pilot can boost his probability of getting a kill in a lesser performing aircraft at any given moment, if he reacts faster and with less gross mistakes to the geometry that is unfolding before him.
 
 

Drex
« Last Edit: August 05, 2003, 01:10:07 AM by Drex »

Offline BNM

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 559
      • http://www.christian3x3.com/
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2003, 01:33:34 AM »
60% Pilot
40% Plane

For average pilots and planes...

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2003, 02:47:02 AM »
I'm enjoying this thread! Urchin, thanks for starting it. :)

The "it's the pilot folks" aren't wrong, but I think they focus on the relative handful of aces, and it's when one of these is around that their argument (<-- note correct spelling akak) applies. There are some aces, but there is a whole swathe of billy-bobs.

Much depends on organisation/working together as a team. The 1v1 scenarios are hypothetical at best. How many times have you killed someone, maybe gloated a bit, and had them challenge you to a bout in the DA? WW2 was not about 1v1. In the RL BoB, the RAF was stuffed full of billy-bobs, some with only a few hours experience and who had never been taught to shoot. On the other hand, the Germans had more experienced pilots, and arguably superior planes - Me109 against our Spit Mk1. And yet the Germans still lost. Why? They had only enough fuel for about 10-15 minutes over England. As they ran home, many were shot from behind, and couldn't turn to fight because of their fuel shortage. I'm just pointing out that there is a plethora of other factors at work other than pilot skill.

I am an average Joe in AH. Judging speeds/distances from pixel sized images on a computer screen does not sit well with middle aged eyesight, with or without glasses, as you young jocks will find out soon enough. I prefer to be working with a team on field capture. I refuse to fly the Big Three (or is it Big Four?) just to make it easy for myself. Many of my kills come from whacking a guy who is attacking one of my friends - I catch him off guard.

Kweassa and Zanth are right, and their theories are borne out by my own stats from last tour. I was killed twice by an LA7, but I killed 16 LA7s. I'm not an expert at killing LA7s, and the reason I got so many is because there are so many around. Why? Because they are perceived to have many advantages, in an arena stuffed full of billy-bobs. In this case, Kweassa's and Zanth's theories overlap.

So maybe it IS the pilot - but in an environment stuffed full of billy-bobs, "it's the pilot" applies only about 0.5% of the time, in a pure and contrived set of circumstances. The rest of the time (99.5%) it's the plane.

I'm still chuckling about Zanth's remarks. Funniest thing I ever read on this board. Had to add a quote to my sig!  :D

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2003, 04:17:20 AM »
I think that it's a combination of the two... and that it's not an either/or question. Er... What exactly is the question Urchin? I double checked your post and it's pretty vague. Can you fashion it into an actual question and put it into context? Impossible to answer as is, I reckon.

Offline MANDOBLE

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1849
      • http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #68 on: August 05, 2003, 04:57:27 AM »
It's the gun pack.

Offline Fariz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1087
      • http://9giap.warriormage.com
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2003, 06:01:37 AM »
If it is my plane, then it is pilot. If it is other guy plane, it is obviously plane, you damn stupid Niki HO crowed clowns!

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2003, 06:31:50 AM »
Wasn't really a question, per se.  I left it rather open to interpretation, I suppose the simplest way to rephrase the original post would be to say "what is the bigger factor- plane or pilot?"  Granted, there are different sets of circumstances, and in a lot of cases numbers is the single biggest factor, but I was just curious to see what everyone thought.  

I think the pilot does play some role in the equation, but I personally think the plane he is in is far more important.

Offline MANDOBLE

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1849
      • http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2003, 06:38:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
I think the pilot does play some role in the equation, but I personally think the plane he is in is far more important.


In the case of planes like Yak9U, 99% is the plane. With planes like P40, 99% is the pilot.

Offline hazed-

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2467
      • http://combatarena.users.btopenworld.com
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2003, 06:56:32 AM »
Im so bored i dont care anymore :D

Offline Snork

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 264
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2003, 07:44:45 AM »
Pilot
Flying as Noser

Offline Sable

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 265
I'm bored so... Plane or Pilot?
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2003, 09:45:26 AM »
So how would we break down pilot skill?  My own feeling right at this moment is that there are probably 4 distinct areas that make up pilot skill.

SA - this one has been brought up a ton of times.  Besides just seeing the enemies around you, this also includes judging their E states.  I think this also includes keeping track of WHO is flying the various planes you are fighting (identifying and prioritizing threats beyond aircraft type and E state).

Discipline - to me this describes a pilots ability to follow a few simple rules.  Try to attack from a position of advantage, keep your speed up, don't throw away all you altitude for one enemy if there are more in the area.  Basically the more disciplined you are the more you'll follow Hartman's rule - See, Decide, Attack, Break.

BFM/ACM - Do you feel confident that you have your moves down going into a nose to nose pass?  Understand one circle vs. two circle?  Can you go from defensive to offensive using a rolling scissors?  That's what this is all about.  

Stick ability/Aircraft knowledge - I seperate this from ACM because there is a difference in my mind between knowing what you want to do, and being able to pull it off.  Also I throw in aircraft knowledge, because of flap useage, stall characteristics etc.  If you are familiar with your ride, it will improve your abilities here.

What do you guys think?