Author Topic: How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver  (Read 2839 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2003, 03:01:00 PM »
Flaps and rudder a definitely needed for the maneuver.  There would be no way that you'd be able to maneuver at such a slow speed without them.


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Offline HavocTM

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2003, 03:47:19 PM »
The important question is:

Why was a P-38 pilot dueling a Spit pilot in WWII?

Offline Ack-Ack

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2003, 04:04:46 PM »
For a couple of cases of beer.


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Offline mia389

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2003, 04:12:18 PM »
LOL AKAK

Offline MOSQ

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2003, 05:53:50 PM »
Which direction of turn does the Spit's torque cause him to stall out quicker ?

What about other planes?

Offline Kweassa

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2003, 06:23:51 PM »
Technically, everytime the P-38 would 'ease out' in the turn, the Spit would have a chance to roll 180, turn into the P-38 and force it into either a flat scissors or a rolling scissors fight, if what I am picturing is correct.

Offline Ack-Ack

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2003, 06:58:51 PM »
The problem is Kweassa is that the Spitfire is also on the edge of a stall or in a stall.  I think it would be hard for him to do just that.  If you read the account of the duel with Lowell, the Spitfire tried to use a Split-S to escape but Lowell managed to stay on his tail and force the Spitfire to exit the fight and fly home.

In a stall fight situation, the edge goes to the P-38.

ack-ack
« Last Edit: August 05, 2003, 07:02:16 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2003, 07:00:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MOSQ
Which direction of turn does the Spit's torque cause him to stall out quicker ?

What about other planes?



I'm pretty sure that the torque is to the left.  As for the other planes, I think most of them are to the left with the exception of the Soviet planes.


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Offline bozon

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2003, 01:44:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Technically, everytime the P-38 would 'ease out' in the turn, the Spit would have a chance to roll 180, turn into the P-38 and force it into either a flat scissors or a rolling scissors fight, if what I am picturing is correct.

I too did not understand the drawing at first.

In Slapshot's drawing he's drawing two 8 figures and I think this is NOT what ack-ack was describing.

here's ack-ack's description:
Quote
The pilot would tighten his turn until he actually stalled out, ease off and let the plane unstall itself, then tighten back up into a stall, ease up....

It should have been only left handed turns. So after drawing the top circle (stall 1 point) he eases and fly to what is marked as "stall 3", pull left again drawing the right circle. Then the bottom and then the left circle.

but it could be that I got it completly wrong.

Bozon
« Last Edit: August 06, 2003, 01:46:53 AM by bozon »
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Ack-Ack

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2003, 02:06:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bozon
I too did not understand the drawing at first.

In Slapshot's drawing he's drawing two 8 figures and I think this is NOT what ack-ack was describing.

here's ack-ack's description:
 
It should have been only left handed turns. So after drawing the top circle (stall 1 point) he eases and fly to what is marked as "stall 3", pull left again drawing the right circle. Then the bottom and then the left circle.

but it could be that I got it completly wrong.

Bozon


The diagram that Slapshot posted is what the maneuver would look like if viewed from above.  If done correctly, it's supposed to resemble a clover-leaf.


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"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline bozon

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2003, 09:17:41 AM »
yes it would resemble a cloverleaf, but not if you reverse the turn (turning to the left, then to the right) like Slapshot drew it. If you reverse the turns you'll be drawing something like an 8 figure.

If I read the quotation correctly, and in order to draw a cloverleaf and not figure 8, it's always turning to the same side.

Bozon
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Virage

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2003, 11:01:39 AM »
the "cloverleaf' as described is a turn in one direction varying the radius of the turn so that instead of a constant circle u have a 'cloverleaf' pattern . Pinch in 4 equal distant spots around a circle and you get the pattern.  Not the figure 8 drawings previously posted.

This move doesn't  outturn the other plane but keeps the 38 in the other planes rear quarter with the hopes of forcing the other plane to bug out.  The 38 lead turns to stall within the spits turn radius, then relaxes turn to overshoot spits 6, than pulls hard to get inside radius..stall.. relax again .. repeat.  I can imagine it would work better in real life (we don't hear of the dead cloverleafs btw)   And it only works in a stall fight.  I wouldn't try it much in AH.  The 38 in AH doesn't have a 'ride the stall' advantage over the spit.  

If you want to be a 38 killa in AH, focus on the when and where to use 2 notchs of flaps.
JG11

Vater

Offline MOSQ

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2003, 11:18:48 AM »
Bozon you are correct,  the view from above would be a clover leaf with all left turns if the turns are each 270 degrees, followed by a small straight. If the the turns are each 180 degrees, you get a nice oval.

Slapshot's drawing would require a 180 degree roll in the straight area between turns 1 and 2, also between 3 and 4, which is not what is described.

FYI, I tested a 38 and a Spit IX in the training arena. I don't believe a well flown Spit would have any problem shooting you down. A P-38 pretty much goes to mush, unable to pull more than 1.1 or 1.2 G's at about 105 mph. However the Spit could get down to around 82-85MPH before it too went to mush at 1.1 to 1.2 G's. I also had no problem with nasty stall characteristics in either plane.

Note the described fight is with a Spit XV, Griffon engine. I'm sure a Spit XV with the Griffon engine would have nasty stall characteristics. The Griffon was huge engine with tons more torque than a Merlin.

From:http://www.home.aone.net.au/shack_one/rolls.htm

"Shoehorning the Griffon into a relatively light single engined aircraft such as the Spitfire created some handling difficulties primarily due to the enormous torque reaction which could amount to a very significant 4,700 pounds feet at take-off power. Designing a gear reduction unit for a contra rotating propeller turned out to the definitive answer after various aerodynamic attempts such as enlarged vertical stabilizer area only presented partial solutions. Contra rotating props were essential for the Navy version of the Griffon Spitfire, known as the Seafire due to the extremely hazardous nature of carrier landings particularly during a go-around when maximum power needed to be applied at low altitude and low air speed. Torque reaction pulled a Griffon Spitfire with a single prop to the right, towards the carrier island, obviously a very s situation.

Spitfire XII's were the first recipient of the Griffon powered by the Mk. III or IV variants with single stage, two speed supercharging. A number of subsequent Spitfires retained Merlin power but towards the end of Spitfire production all were powered by Griffons. Starting with the Spitfire XIV, two-stage, two-speed intercooled, aftercooled superchargers became standard, all of which were 60 series engines."

I will flight test our Spit XIV.

On the other hand, after an hour of this stall practice flying, I went into the MA and found myslef in a very low alt turn fight with a Seafire, I was in a YAK9-T, a supposedly poor low speed manouvering plane. I've been flying the 9-T a lot , and had in fact just been practicing it on the stall edge after testing the P-38 and Spit IX.

I dropped all flaps, went to half left rudder, 3/4 nose up trim and flew the cloverleaf as described. The 9-T mushes out at about 102-05 MPH doing this, so that's where I straightened out for just a second or two.

The Seafire tried to follow, but after two circles apparently got scared of stalling at only 200 ft and split away.  I followed but he turned around for an HO, which my 37MM quickly dispatched him to the tower in a mid air explosion.

So the bottom line is it's 90% pilot, 10% plane. But the 10% plane is a huge advantage if both pilots are able to fly on the edge of the stall equally well. The Seafire should and could have turned inside me if he had more practice flying the stall edge.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2003, 11:37:13 AM by MOSQ »

Offline SlapShot

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2003, 12:30:13 PM »
Bozon you are correct, the view from above would be a clover leaf with all left turns if the turns are each 270 degrees, followed by a small straight. If the the turns are each 180 degrees, you get a nice oval.

Slapshot's drawing would require a 180 degree roll in the straight area between turns 1 and 2, also between 3 and 4, which is not what is described.


Ok ... I think I see it now ... hows this ?


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Offline Ack-Ack

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2003, 12:41:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Virage
 The 38 in AH doesn't have a 'ride the stall' advantage over the spit.  




Yes it does.


Ack-Ack
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