Author Topic: P38 diving?  (Read 797 times)

Offline mia389

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P38 diving?
« on: August 04, 2003, 11:53:16 AM »
was at 33k lastnight and decided to dive to the deck in it. I rarely dive in the 38 hard core like that but it was fun. I only managed to get 475ias though. Why is this. I thought the P38 was very dangerous if you pointed the nose down since it would pick up speed so fast. I know a 51 can do 500 in a dive easily. You belive I didnt hit the dirt :)  Anyway is the 38s diving not modeled correct or is it and i Just heard wrong. I though I seen that on Akaks training video he had up. That old black and white one

 FBsmokey

Offline gofaster

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P38 diving?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2003, 01:28:42 PM »
Mach limit?

I know mach is 7hundred-something but I think I read somewhere that shock waves formed along the wing surfaces at over 400 and the P38 couldn't break through.

Offline Hooligan

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P38 diving?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2003, 01:58:09 PM »
If you read reports of the P-38 dive (i.e. compression) problems....  they state that it was very difficult to pull out of a high speed dive until you got to lower altitude (less than 15k) and thicker air.  I haven't seen any indication that the aircraft would dive so fast that the wings would break off or anything like that...

So unless you pulled out of a high speed dive while above 20k and without using the dive brakes...  nothing unexpected happened.

Hooligan

Offline Ack-Ack

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P38 diving?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2003, 04:00:57 PM »
If you had used a little bit of nose down trim and kept the throttle full bore and WEP on, you would have hit the 500mph mark.  Whenever I get into a diving chase against a P-51, that's what I do and I can usually catch them in a dive.  The fastest I've been able to get the P-38 in a dive was around 525mph.  I still had control because I was 8k when I finally caught up to the P-51.

It is also harder to enter compressability in late model P-38s (late series J models and the L model) because of the dive flaps and control is easier in high speed dives because of the hydrolic boosted flight controls.  And also that the P-38 will only enter compressability at altitudes above 20,000ft where the mach threshold is lower because of the thinner air at those altitudes.  

Here's a snippet that explains it.  It's taken from the P-38 Online website.

Quote

Compressibility occurs what the P-38 entered dives stated above 20,000 ft. The airflow would be "splashed" over the leading edge of the wing instead of the usual smooth airflow. The splashed air would approach the sound barrier (not the aircraft itself, but rather the speed of the air flowing over the wing), thus causing a shockwave effect on the trailing edge. This would render the controls inoperable, leaving the pilot without any control of the aircraft. Two possibilities would then ensue. Either the aircraft would slow as it descended into denser air closer to the ground and the pilot would regain control and pull out of the dive. Or in some cases, the P-38 would simply disintegrate. Many pilots would lose their lives when they inadvertently entered a steep dive, or when performing dive tests. More importantly, this problem would affect the performance of early operational versions of the P-38, and also caused many rumors that plagued the P-38 early in the war.

Tony Levier described compressibility as, "It resembled a giant phantom hand that seized the plane and sometimes shook it out of the pilot's control." George Gray wrote in a history of the NACA, "The behavior was new to pilots, terrifying, baffling. Several men, in putting this two-engine fighter through its diving maneuvers, underwent the experience: A sudden violent buffeting of the tail accompanied by a lunging and threshing about of the place, as though it were trying to free itself on invisible bonds, and then the maddening immobility of the controls, the refusal of the elevators to respond to the stick." Use of elevator trim would sometimes bring the P-38 out of a dive before destruction. Sometimes the P-38 would begin to tuck under and begin to come out of the dive upside-down. Levels of stress on the airframe were staggering, and the fact that the aircraft would come out of the dive at all was proof of its strength. Hal Hibbard described the compressibility problem as, "…the air tends to be 'splashed' by the leading edge of the wing more of less like the prow of a boat at high speed in the water. As one approached the compressibility range, the air is throw to violently up and down the leading edge that is does not have a chance to flow over the wing in the proper manner."


Ack-Ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline mia389

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P38 diving?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2003, 07:08:37 PM »
yep I hit 520 with a 17k dive this time. Amazing what the trim did and also dove with the wind this time:-)

That said I still thought a P38 would be able to out dive alot of things but that dont seem to be true in Aceshigh

Offline Blue Mako

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P38 diving?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2003, 01:14:27 AM »
AKAK

That quote is pretty misleading.  The part about the shockwave affecting the controls is correct, however the explanation for why the shockwave forms is pretty woeful.  Just FYI: The shockwave forms as a result of the air having to speed up as it goes around the wing.  Because the P38's wing is relatively thick, it has to speed up more than it would to go around a thin wing (like a P51's).  Thus the air moving over the P38's wing will go supersonic when the plane is moving at a lower speed than a thin winged plane.  The locking of the controls is caused by the shockwave moving across the wing until they hit the control surface (or it's hinges), making it impossible to move against the supersonic air loads.

The stuff about the air splashing is misleading at best.  ;)