regional airlines hiring like mad

[BigBen]

That's what I mean about keeping your eye on the prize... the lean years become somewhat more profitable after you build a couple thousand turbine hours at less than minimum wage (hours paid are flight only!).    

[Ozark]

BigBen has it right!

Yea, work cheap and build those hours!

Hey, for most folks, it's the first time they don't pay to fly.

A BIG <S> to the folks who fly the hours at low pay and later earn their pay in the majors!

In the long run, it's worth it to get that turbo-prop ticket punched.  

Ozark



------------------
332nd Flying Mongrels

[Duckwing6]

Anyone here can get me a green card ?

European hiring boom is just on the down slide gain  

Well istill hope it will pay off one time

[Toad]

Guys, like most things, it's not as simple as it appears. I salute the guys in the commuter ranks. They are underappreciated and underpayed.

Many of the commuter lines were making you pay for your own training not long ago. I don't know if that's still going on but it seems pretty low to charge a guy $12K for his Jetstream or Beech training and then hire him on for $16k the first year. Sounds like indentured servitude to me.

After 2-3 years he gets enough hours to be competitive for a "majors" job and he gets nailed with "probation pay" for the first year. Now he's working for a famous major and getting about $30K.

Probation pay is BS. They wouldn't have hired the guy if he wasn't the absolute best available and he has already PROVEN himself or they wouldn't hire him. Still, it's an industry "tradition" and they get away with it.

This is generally a guy who has gotten a college degree, general flight training and some time all on his own. Then the "indentured servitude" on the commuter for 2-3 years. In short, he's made a huge investment of time and money and proved that he is generally very responsible and accountable.

Now that he's at the major, Seniority is all. He moves up if the airline grows, stagnates if it doesn't.

Right now, it's the best of times. 5 Year Captains or newer at United. Life is VERY good. Not all airlines are the same. Right now "mainline" Captain at my airline is about 9 years.

However, it can lock up in a heartbeat. The oil prices ARE going to have an effect.

I was hired right before the ATC controller walkout/strike under Reagan.

It took my class 15 years to make Captain; we spent 6 years on the 727 Engineer seat. 95% of my class were ex-military. College Degrees, almost every one of us military instructors, 1500 hour fighter guys, 2500 hour multi guys. We made less than we made in the service for the first 3 years...it didn't get a whole lot better until we made First Officer around year 7.

In summary....if you have the ratings, NOW is the time! Get IN there! The feast is ON.

Just remember that it's a VERY cyclical business. It can grind to a five year halt with the turn of a valve on an oil pipeline!

 

[Creamo]

Pilots are underpaid, and it tears my heart out knowing that the commuters pay so little. It took my cousin just under 2 years to make it to the majors. That’s a really long time...I guess. Now he has to live on $100K and toil at the autopilot until he builds enough time to make $260,000 a year as a 747 Captain. At least American's pilots averaged $20/hr in PROFIT SHARING alone, so he'll be OK.

Actually, I usually bring a sandwich to the cockpit with me in case the pilots spent their last $3 on Yachting magazine. Sometimes not all airport restaurants will take Platinum Discover Cards.


Quote-The oil prices ARE going to have an effect.
Damn right, cuz we put a $40 per ticket surcharge on each ticket while our new fleet is way more fuel efficient. It MORE than off sets fuel costs. Way more, just another reason were making billions.

Heh, I amuse myself.  

[Toad]

Hey, Creamo...

What position did your cousin apply for?

What position did you apply for?


 

[ygsmilo]

(sits back by the fire and asks Rip for another beer)

------------------
Milo
3./JG2
"Horrido"

[Creamo]

Thats original Toad, sounds vaguely familiar.

A. He's a pilot, Im a AMT, but ya knew that.

Still, here's one for ya and the tards drinking beer at the fire-

I am, like many of the other skilled AMT's, leaving aviation for other industries. After 15 years, I've had enough, and obviously there is better opportunity in computers living in the Bay Area. It’s that way everywhere actually, and the A&P schools are empty for exactly what your jab at me points out. Why would anyone train for a job with such huge responsibility for so little $? So I guess I was kinda dumb to take this career path, but at one point when I was younger it was quite rewarding, exciting, and I actually took pride in the profession. At least very few other people are making the same mistakes these days. The delays and cancellations due to mechanics shortages in the next 5-10 years will attest to that.

Now, I got a question for you. Who do want troubleshooting your next altimeter split and changing the CADC's when your flying minimums, and into a torrid down pour in Little Rock?  Who do you want rigging your engines, spoilers, changing the landing gear uplocks, or inspecting your aircraft before you head ETOPS out over the pond? The new mechanics they are going to try hire and pay at the very least amount possible to save a few dollars, or someone who has been doing it for 20 years AND is well compensated? Please! Your poking fun at the very guys that have your bellybutton hanging in our hands, not to mention the 180 folks behind you. This attitude is dangerous...literally.

 It’s time for you to stop worrying about if $140,000 is enough for you to live on and striking over it, and blaming the mechanic for his career choice. It’s the same toejam I here at work. If you don’t like it leave. OK, I will, but I’d rather they just pay the AMT’s for their responsibility, and retained the skilled mechanics to ensure the safest possible airlines. You pay one way or another I guess. I bet the flying public has a entirley diffrent take on it.

The aviation industry is in for a real shock in the coming years. With contracts coming up, no mechanics to hire, and other industries snapping up the experienced AMT’s,  I guess your going to be doing a lot of sitting at the gate looking like a bell hop in polyester, with a funny hat. (ouch)  

[LaVa]

220 TT 35 multi

man i got a ways to go and im already 26...

Currenlty working on instument/commerical and going broke doing it.  Its a long hard road for general avation pilots and to make a decent living you have to make it to the majors.  I quess we really love to fly if we go into thosands of dollars of debt to make it.

Shame the commuters dont pay more...hopefully that will change.

O-yeah for you guys wanting to build time: check out alaska bush flying...50 bucks an hr. You have to have 500TT to qualify for 135 operations for pic time.

good luck guys, i know i'm going to need it.

LaVa

[Ice]

Creamo....

I can tell you who I would not want touching anything I fly....someone with an attitude like yours.

Much of what you say is true, but the fault
lies not with pilots, but rather those who grace the Ivory Towers...and not just in the airline industry. To think otherwise is simply ignorance in the true definition of the word.

And thanks for your post btw....I now understand more clearly why the undertone of most of your posts are so negative.

Out!

[Toad]

Creamo,

You can search every post I've ever made and you will find I have NEVER said mechanics are overpaid or even paid any where near fair compensation.

You are quite correct in stating that your profession is undercompensated for the work you do and responsibility that you have. I agree totally and am sympathetic to your plight.

That is the difference between thee and me, old chum.

You are apparently envious of what pilots make. Perhaps you think that if pilots made less, mechanics would be paid more. Those concepts I WILL poke fun at.

I am not envious of the mechanics pay scale or working conditions for obvious reasons. I think they have a huge amount of responsibility, I think they work long hours in tough conditions and I don't believe that they are fairly compensated. I would back any job action that mechanics take to make this point to managment.

However, I don't see any rising tide of anger amongst the industry mechanics. Particularly at my airline, they seem quite content. I cannot explain it, nor can I change it.

Perhaps your forecast will be true and supply and demand will take a role. Then wages might go up.

Until then, I do what you do. I do my job. I take an airplane that is signed off as airworthy after I do my preflight. If a problem occurs in the air, I deal with it as I have been trained.

That's about all I can do. It's worked fine, so far.  

I DO think mechanics are underpaid. However, it's not because pilots are overpaid. Envy won't help the mechanics pay scales.

Answer this from recent history:

When pilots take a pay cut, what happens to wages for every other employee group on the airline?

You know the answer.

Good luck in your new profession. I wish they'd just pay you what you are worth though.

[Duckwing6]

HA .. our Auirline is about to go under and what are our pilots doing ?

The threat to strike ! Even after the company offered them a pay rise of 22%(!! read that twenty two) for the captains and 16% for the copliots ....

A upstart CO gets about 35K ATS (2300$) / month .. a technician with 10 years experience and all licenses makes the same .. go figure

DW6
(Engineer .. Powerplant / APU B737)

[rfa]

The job market is booming in Africa too. My roommate here at Embry-Riddle (and also my brother) sent an email to one of the 7 (!) Nigerian airlines in order to find out more about flying there.  He did not really expect anything, but after two days he gets a reply: "When can you start?".  This is for a F/O position on a DC-9.  He has a Commercial, 300 total, and 80 multi!

It's scetchy at best, considering the safety record of some airlines over there (this particular one is not too bad however).

The "advertised" pay is not bad, considering the fact that there is no FAA over there, and you can get a lot of hours in a week.  It certainly beats a Commuter or CFI job.

One thing is certain, its a great time to be in aviation.

Cheers,

Jack Szarkowski

[Daff]

I still dont get it  .

Why waste all that time and money to fly an airliner?...I mean..it doesnt do anything!.
Instead you'll have to accept an awful lot of pressure and stress just to fly straight and level.
I did *think* about going the commercial route....that was until I tried aerobatics.
IMO, it's nothing but glorified busdriving. Yeah, sure you need a lot of training, skill and knowledge..but..to do what?..move a group of people from A to B as smoothly and as quickly as possible...IMHO, it got nothing very little to do wit flying.
 I'm going to try the aerobatics route all the way. I doubt I'll ever make beyond advanced level, but..I know I'm going to have FUN getting there...in the same sense, I also know that it'll never make me the money I'm making now in my current job..but I'll do something that's fun and that will keep challenging me.
When I get to your average airfield, there's tons of these types, who are working on their ATPL...you know the type...dark trousers, light blue shirt and tie..and often with silly goldbars on their shoulders...and most of them have never been in a spin and even fewer have been upside down. WTF do they know about flying?.
Heck, who doesnt know that type of instructors...the ones who give you all the ATPL talk, wants you to fly a friggin' cessna the same way you fly a 737, depist e it being the most impractical way of flying the bloody thing.

Sorry..I just dont get it.

Daff

------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Duckwing6:
HA .. our Auirline is about to go under DW6(Engineer .. Powerplant / APU B737)

At least in the US, there has NEVER been an airline that was able to stay in business by getting the employees to take a major pay cut.

In the end, they all fail anyway and it usually doesn't take much time. The list is long.

If you want to see the real problem, look at management compensation/performance. Steve Wolfe at US Air is a prime example.

He and his #2 man split about $40 million in bonus money (on top of a multi-million dollar salaries for leading the airline to a LOSING year at a time when every airline that deserves the name was posting record profits.

How far would that $40 million go towards helping the company? It would pay for a new 737-800 in full...and the 737 would then MAKE money for the company every day. Unlike Wolfe and Gangwahl.

Duckwing, when the managers can get the employees fighting amongst themselves they have won the battle.



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-27-2000).]