Author Topic: Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?  (Read 2126 times)

Offline Hortlund

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2003, 02:13:06 AM »
For heavens sake AKSW...what you described is warfare from the 16th century up to late 1800:s. Not to piss on your parade or anything, but I'd say the 30 yrs wars here in Euroland was more brutal, more fierce, took more lives, and generally were in an order of magnitude worse than the ACW.

Offline Urchin

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2003, 02:36:11 AM »
No Hortlund, no way no how.

The European wars from the 15th to 18th century were fought with 15th to 18th century weapons using 15th to 18th century tactics.  

There is a REASON the soldiers practiced drill and stood in long lines- they couldnt hit a whoopee thing if they didn't.  

The American Civil War introduced much more lethal weapons.  The muskets reloaded faster than the older ones, and furthermore muskets were phased out in favor of rifles, which were far more accurate.  I believe grapeshot was used for the first time in the Civil War, I could be wrong on that though.  In spite of the fact that the weapons were more accurate thus lethal, the generals on BOTH sides (but particularly the Union side) persisted in using older, European tactics that were well suited to the more inaccurate weapons that the tactics were made up for.  So when two musket units in one of the myriad wars of the 15th-18th centuries lined up and faced off against eachother to fire a few volleys, you might only get 5-6 casualties per volley at 100 yards.  When two rifle units went head to head and traded volleys, you could lose 30-40% of the unit in 2 minutes.

Now of course on the scale of 300 years of European conflict, the American Civil War doesn't count for much.  But, in my opinion it ushered in the more "brutal" type of war we had right up through WW2.

Offline Dowding

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2003, 03:06:39 AM »
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Civil War no doubt, most other battles/wars someone had a superiority - except in the middle ages, but in the middle ages you weren't getting your bellybutton shot at while you were swinging your mace around.

In the Civil War, everyone lined up, fired at the enemy who was also lined up, then someone advanced. Many dropped on both sides, reload as fast as possible, then get another shot off. After that, bayonett time with people still being shot at. This was close quarters combat.

In an open field, one sided advanced with canon balls and a wall of shot coming at them.

Maybe there was something in europe equivelant to this? French Revolution?


Study your history. Perhaps many Americans are not aware of it, but I suggest you look at the Napoleonic wars and in particular the battles in Flanders, Portugal and Spain between the British (+ allies) and the French (+ allies). The warfare you decribed above was not an American invention - it was a European method honed to deadly efficiency by centuries of practice.

Have you forgotten Waterloo? Even just taking into account the 10 hour battle itself and excluding Quatre Bras and the other preliminaries, there were 64,000 casualties on both sides.

At Borodino there were 74,000 casualties.

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The muskets reloaded faster than the older ones, and furthermore muskets were phased out in favor of rifles, which were far more accurate.


Rifles were in use in the British army in 1806 I believe, when green coated skirmish regiments like the 60th and 95th would harry the enemy at long distance, as they attacked.

While the ACW saw widespread use of rifles, whose accuracy was greater than the smooth-bore musket carried by line infantry 60 years earlier, the rate of fire was not. Breech loading weapons were a relative rarity and were out-numbered by the traditional muzzle loading type. An average British red coat battalion of the Napoleonic era could fire 4 shots a minute - and at the ranges they engaged accuracy was irrelevant. A few devastating volleys of battalion fire would kill an attack dead - as the French columns learned time and time again. In attack, a volley would be fired before closing with the bayonet.

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I believe grapeshot was used for the first time in the Civil War, I could be wrong on that though


Wrong, I'm afraid. Grapeshot had been around for a hundred years or more before the ACW - primarily used on ships although not always so. Other methods had been developed for land. The British army used case shot (hollow cannon balls filled with musketballs around a charge), cannister (thin walled cannisters filled with musket balls which would split apart at the cannon muzzle), howitzers etc. Artillery was very advanced.

The ACW did not see large cavalry actions to the extent that the Napoleonic wars did. Cavalry was losing its influence as a major battlefield force, but back in Wellington's and Napoleon's day, the cavalry were a superlative killing machine and could decimate broken or exposed troops in short order.

Overall, the ACW did see the introduction of more lethal weapons but I wouldn't say it was the final word in pre-20th century warfare.

I'd say a later battle was pretty intense too - Rourke's Drift. To be in those British soldier's shoes must have been terrible. Didn't they award a bucket load of Victoria Crosses afterwards?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2003, 03:19:41 AM by Dowding »
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2003, 04:08:13 AM »
The American Civil War started with Napoleonis tactics, and ended in trench warfare.  The early tactics were due to inertia in military thinking. When repeater rifles came out, the tactics changed.

The siege of Richmond looked similar to northern France 50 years later:  Men dug in in trenches, awaiting the next artillery barrage.
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Offline Crowwe

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2003, 06:39:15 AM »
Yes, alot changed during the American Civil War. We had numerous foreign visitors coming to see what the future of war would look like.

Rapid fire guns, trench warfare, more extensive use of aviation for scouting (balloons), snipers using scoped rifles, first ironclad ship engagement (as well as the gun turret mounted on a ship, more extensive use of trains and telegraph for orders and resupply.

Back to the orginal discussion, I'd have to vote for the Eastern front WWII. Not only for the numbers of dead combatants, but also for the number of civilians killed- including the indivduals gassed by the Nazis.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2003, 06:54:30 AM »
Yeah, the seiges of Stalingrad and Leningrad are probably tied for the most casualties, although the rape of Nanking may be close.
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Offline MoMoney

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2003, 08:10:58 AM »
What about the seige of Vicksberg ??  You Euro's should read about that one.  

Also, I seem to remember that the worst seige ever was Gangus Khan's seige of Kiev.  I think he was outraged that they didn't surrender and once he took the city he killed every living person they he could find.  Days and days of mass executions with primitive weapons...I think they executed like a million people?

Offline -tronski-

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2003, 08:32:33 AM »
Kokoda 1942

A vicous running battle across the Owen Stanley ranges with 2 Australian Battalions defeating a 6,000 strong Japanese force which resulted in the first defeat of the Japanese army in the pacific theatre.

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Offline Erlkonig

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2003, 08:58:35 AM »
I don't know, I wasn't there for any of them.

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2003, 12:19:09 PM »
My parade Hortlund? Ummmm, yeah... I forgot, anytime anyone says something about what America went through they must be tooting their own horn.

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Originally posted by Dowding
Study your history.


What you posted is actually European history, and thusly not "my" history.

Its in the history books, but doesn't qualify as "American" history.

Sorry that you have to get your panties in a bunch over something I said about the Civil War, hell I thought this thread was about America because it's labelled "Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?" With several wars listing "American experience".

Must be my poor comprehension skills coming into play here.
-SW

Offline Lance

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2003, 12:47:31 PM »
The streets of ciudad Acuna.  A maglite-wielding federale missed my head by a couple of inches.

Offline Dowding

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2003, 01:01:50 PM »
My panties aren't in a bunch. Although evidentally answering your question has in some way offended you. Chill.

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"Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?" With several wars listing "American experience".


And several that didn't. This thread didn't just talk about American history - there are conflicts up there that didn't involve any Americans. And I would have thought the phrase 'your history' can understandably be taken in the same context as 'your maths' or 'your English'. In future, I'll make sure I qualify every statement just so not to confuse you. Maybe I'll throw in a few foot notes - how's that grab ya?
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Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2003, 01:37:29 PM »
Oh please, you weren't just going the route of informing me of what had slipped my mind, the first two sentences in your post say it all.

Then there's "Have you forgotten Waterloo?", well I obviously have if I didn't post about it.

The whole reply is more reminiscient of implicating I'm a dumb American than an actual informative post.
-SW

Offline gofaster

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2003, 01:48:15 PM »
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where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?


On this message board.

(although the http://www.avp.com forum can get quite fierce at times, too.)

Offline SirLoin

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Where did we see the fiercest fighting ever?
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2003, 01:54:08 PM »
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Guadacanal or Iwo Jima gets my vote from the books I've read (Pacific)


My vote too.
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