Author Topic: old rifle question (Read 863 times)

Modas · « **on:** August 06, 2003, 01:35:08 PM »

My dad has got a couple of old rifles (handed down to him by his dad ) that I am trying to find ammunition for. He's getting up there in age and wants to relive his youth and go cap some rounds thru them.

The first one is a 38-55. I don't know the manufacturer. It is a lever action, top eject with a really cool octagonal barrel . Its got an 8 round tube magazine under the barrel. I cannot for the life of me find ammo for this thing. I've got one round (from about 1960) and its like a small artillery round.

The second is a .401 carbine (Remington I think, but not sure). Same issue. I cannot find ammunition for it.

Does anyone know of anyplace that might manufacture this old ammo?

thanks!

Gadfly · « **Reply #1 on:** August 06, 2003, 01:39:54 PM »

Be real careful firing that octagonal barrel.

davidpt40 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 06, 2003, 01:48:41 PM »

Whats dangerous about octagonal barrels?

Modas · « **Reply #3 on:** August 06, 2003, 02:00:08 PM »

I was going to ask the same question. I do not believe that this is this is the old style damascus barrel. I wouldn't see any problem shooting this thing providing the barrel hasn't rusted out or anything like that.

My dad used to shoot this thing all the time when he was young. Kicked like a mule he said. It only weights about 8 lbs...

Dune · « **Reply #4 on:** August 06, 2003, 02:14:17 PM »

Since your first rifle is a top-eject, it's most likely a Winchester Model 1894 (or copy) of some sort: http://www.armchairgunshow.com/otsRY_Winchester_lever.htm

And Winchester makes factory ammo for the 38-55: 255grn softpoints. Most gunstores could probably order it for you.

http://www.winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfrlist.aspx?cartlist=MzgtNTUgV2luY2hlc3Rlcg==&uselist=none&brandlist=none&bullettype=none

I didn't find anything for the .401 Rem. Could it be a .41 Remington Mag? If you could give more info about the weapon it might help.

With some older weapons, it still might be a good idea to have a gunsmith just check them out to be sure (I say this because I'm not sure what your experience with guns is)

Modas · « **Reply #5 on:** August 06, 2003, 02:44:20 PM »

The only distinctive thing about the .401 (I'm pretty sure that is the caliber) is that to chamber the round, it isn't done up by the bolt like normal semi-autos. There is a rod UNDER the barrel and is actuated similar to a pump action shotgun. It is a carbine as it is much shorter than a normal rifle.

The only thing that I have been able to find with additional searching is a .401 WSL (winchester self loading), but I can't find pictures of it to confirm if this is the right one or not.

rc51 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 06, 2003, 03:47:50 PM »

Have a good gunsmith look over the rifles.
Then just do a internet search on amunition.
DO NOT fire that thing till a smith gives you the ok:eek:

Ghosth · « **Reply #7 on:** August 06, 2003, 06:05:49 PM »

38 caliber bullet on top of 55 grains of black powder.

Frankly shooting either of them at this point is likely to just lower thier value.

I'd have to agree with RC51, if he must shoot it best to have it checked out. Then do it with some light loads.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #8 on:** August 06, 2003, 07:46:05 PM »

If you must fire them remember BLACK POWDER . and you will be lowering the value.

you can find someone on the net, to sell you rounds in just about any caliber. make sure it's from an actual company, not some guy in his basement.

btw- are all these rifles center-fire. if they are you'd be better of to have someone make you some dies and load your own (not a hard process to learn as long as you are careful and can use calipers and a scale acurately. you can usually buy brass or find a cartridge that is close to your casing size and 'fire-form' it.

I had an 1872 veterly (sp?) swiss infantry riffle, until I traded it off last year. cool gun but as it was a rim-fire. it would have been outragious to shoot (about $15 per shot), since I would need new brass for each round.

bigsky · « **Reply #9 on:** August 06, 2003, 09:43:28 PM »

damascus barrels were only on shotguns and only for blackpowder use. there is no way to make a octagon barrel using the damascus way. they were bands of steel wraped around a rod to form the barrel. actually the octagon would be safer because it has more steel than a round one. you should be able to find brass and bullets for it. try dixie gunworks. you will find everything you need there. and remember blackpowder needs special cleaners and solvents. if you use a petrolem based solvent or lubricant with blackpowder you will get an unholy sticky mess. and if you do shoot them its not like modern smokeless powder, blackpowder is very corrosive, clean it within 24 hours. i used to shoot competition with my muzzel loader. i would be glad to help you out.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #10 on:** August 06, 2003, 10:02:24 PM »

actually round barrles are stronger. the extra metal (on the corners of the octagon) only serves to focus the stress on the thinner portions (on the flats). so instead of the stress being evenly distributed around a round barrle the octabon focuses it on the 8 flats.

that aside, as long as there is no rust, cracks or other damage(have an expert check for cracks they may not be visible to the naked eye), it should be safe to shoot as long as you are using the correct loads.

Leslie · « **Reply #11 on:** August 06, 2003, 10:30:38 PM »

Cleanup for black powder is a different breed of cat, as bigsky indicated. I use boiling water and ivory liquid for muzzleloaders, finishing up with Rem Oil and 3-in-One. A lever action would be a bear to clean that way, though you could possibly use a flexible, non-metallic cleaning rod fed from the breach, drawing up the hot water and ivory liquid from a bucket with the muzzle end stuck in the bucket. Very messy ordeal, and you will burn your hand on the hot barrel if you're not careful.

If you can find brass and dies, it may be possible to load your own smokeless cartridges. Don't do this if you can't find reloading info on this cartridge in a reloading manual. IMR 3031 is a good smokeless rifle powder because it burns slower and doesn't generate excessive chamber pressures, i.e. relatively safe to use for old rifles. Always start off with the minimum load. When I reload I usually stay with the minimum load.

I don't know whether it is safe to use copper jacketed bullets with black powder loads. Maybe someone here knows. If jacketed bullets are not recommended, and you can't find lead ones, you may have to buy a bullet mold and lead smelter...again, more work. I would advise against loading black powder in cartridges the way modern reloads are done. Black powder has a reputation for being tempremental, and can and will touch off by percussion. If this happened while reloading, or if one cooked off in the tube magazine of the rifle, you can imagine what would happen.

Sounds like you may have a nice old lever action Modas, which probably has collectors value. The guys here have good advice. I'd be interested in what the gunsmith says. The ideal situation would be to find factory ammo ready made. Even then, I wouldn't fire it more than a few times, to avoid taking a chance on damaging the rifle.

~~Les~~

capt. apathy · « **Reply #12 on:** August 06, 2003, 10:39:59 PM »

forgot to add 'pyrodex' is a much cleaner, and more stable burning substitute for black powder. you can use it anywhere you would use black powder. one important note though, it is equivilant to an equal volume of black powder, not equal in weight.

Leslie · « **Reply #13 on:** August 06, 2003, 11:13:50 PM »

I have a pretty neat old .22 semi auto Remington made under the Browning patent. It looks exactly like the Browning .22 semi auto. I don't know how old it is, but on the barrel it says "MODERN-SMOKELESS."

Not to get off topic, but does anyone here know anything about this rifle? Think it was made back in the 30s, but have no idea how old it is. Front sight was off a little, so I sprayed some super freeze on it and tapped the sight back in place after securing the rifle in a vise.

It belonged to one of my Dad's friends, who used it to squirrel hunt. He left it to my Dad when he passed away, and now I have it. Bob (my Dad's friend) used to tell tales about how that rifle killed 60 squirrels in one day, and the guys would fill up a large sack with squirrels on their hunts. I think they just took turns with the one .22. He also used to have a .410 double barrel shotgun, which I know is valuable, but it got away from me and I don't know what happened to it.

Les

Leslie · « **Reply #14 on:** August 07, 2003, 12:16:31 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by capt. apathy
forgot to add 'pyrodex' is a much cleaner, and more stable burning substitute for black powder. you can use it anywhere you would use black powder. one important note though, it is equivilant to an equal volume of black powder, not equal in weight.

So this means it takes more Pyrodex in volume than black powder to equal grainage in weight, since Pyrodex is lighter than bp. I tried a 70 grain bp load in my replica Sharps 50-70 using a round .50 lead ball, and that was a tight fit pushing the ball with my thumb and then a small block of wood to compress it...the ball went halfway exactly. Pyrodex wouldn't work because of the cartridge volume. The smokeless alternative was about 29 grains of IMR 3031, which filled the cartridge about one half to two thirds of the way..the remaining area taken up by a very small piece of fabric. This lobs the .520 grain bullet along with plenty of energy, though it is the minimum load. Not extremely accurate, but good enough for deer hunting out to 30 yards in the woods. Killed my first deer with that rifle.

Bought the brass from Dixie Gun Works and loaded up about 150 rounds to "plink" with.

It's fun shooting old style rifles like that, though with the Sharps, I never really took the time to develop long range loads. On paper, it shoots about 10 inches down and right at 100 yards...but the holes are close together, so I suppose it's accurate. Would not take a shot at a deer with it at that range. Too much Kentucky windage involved.

Les