Author Topic: The Urge to Merge..F6F drivers..  (Read 1754 times)

Offline Grizzly

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The Urge to Merge..F6F drivers..
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2003, 01:44:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by sling322
As I understand it....AW hard-coded HO shots to give less or no damage.  Dont confuse programming with "community-wide acceptance."

Besides, if you cant avoid the HO, thats your fault...no the HO'ers.


You don't understand it at all. Yes, the head on shots were nullified in the programming. But they were still reviled, for two reasons.

(1) Although HO shot affectiveness was reduced by 80%, they still could cause damage. This was especially true of planes that had centerline guns for greater concentration, like the P38. Without the threat of head ons or collisions, it was common in AW to merge head on. Players were not expecting a cheep shot in the face. I'm not saying this was good... just the way it was. AH certainly provides a superior encounter.

(2) Perhaps the biggest reason head ons were reviled is that it marked the opponent as a rookie. The time wasted for a face shot is critical for setting yourself up for your initial maneuver. The face shot was especially silly in AW with its reduced affectiveness and signaled an easy victory. In AH it may not be as silly, but IMHO is an act of desperation.

Being reviled and humiliated was one of the very best incentives in AW to learn ACM and comply with community standards. Except for a few basic requirements, like not being able to kill friendlies, our game is presented to us without any rules. So acceptable conventions and game play must be applied by the players, and humiliation is our only means of inforcement.

Offline F4UDOA

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The Urge to Merge..F6F drivers..
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2003, 02:31:22 PM »
The biggest problem facing an F6F driver against a La-7 is what happens after you gain an advantage you will be facing a fast fleeing target.

Honestly I'm surprised at how often F6F drivers make mistakes that cost them.

I don't fly them that much but I luv to fly against them. The most common mistake that kills them is...

Don't pull so hard. You have a sizable turning advantage over the La-7 so don't waste your E by pulling so many G's. You will out turn him anyway so save your E.

Also don't loop perfectly straight. Stay off to one side. He will try to HO you at the top so wait until he goes by then turn in behind him at the top of the loop. Again not to hard as he will begin to dive and run away almost immediately after this maneuver. If he continues to maneuver after this you will catch him very quickly.

Unless bounced, B&Zed or HO you should not loose this engagement.

Offline Mathman

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« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2003, 02:46:17 PM »
LOL,

This stuff always makes me laugh (not the initial question, but the HO whines/complaints/debate/whatever).

Like it or not, the HO is a valid shot.  I, like many other people, play this game, for the fights.  I don't like to lose anymore than the rest of the people out there.  I will do what I need to win a fight.  If this means I must HO someone to win, I will.  If that makes me a dweeb or an *******, tough ****.  I will keep doing what makes me return to this game over and over.

Plus, there is the added benefit to winning the HO.  The whine that usually accompanies it on channel 1.

Offline Steve

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The Urge to Merge..F6F drivers..
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2003, 02:58:42 PM »
Math, any shot is "legit", I must admit. As a former AW'er I'm learning to adapt.  As an example, I'll accept an HO from an LA7 until 800 yards distance, then duck under .  My pony's .50's can score plenty from 1200 to 800 and the La7 really can't do much at these distances.  Now,  I get to hear HO whines from damaged la7's as I go about my business, unscathed.

My lament is: After the HO merge, it seems like almost everyone will nose down and bug, or they do some feeble loop/ break turn and get quickly blasted out of the  sky.   They simply are at a loss of what to do next.  They are HO dependent.
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Offline Mathman

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« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2003, 03:11:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
My lament is: After the HO merge, it seems like almost everyone will nose down and bug, or they do some feeble loop/ break turn and get quickly blasted out of the  sky.   They simply are at a loss of what to do next.  They are HO dependent.


Yeah, thats my only problem with the HO.  Nobody wants to stick around afterwards.  Guess they shot their wad on the first pass.

Offline Arlo

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The Urge to Merge..F6F drivers..
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2003, 03:41:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Grizzly
You don't understand it at all. Yes, the head on shots were nullified in the programming. But they were still reviled, for two reasons.

(1) Although HO shot affectiveness was reduced by 80%, they still could cause damage. This was especially true of planes that had centerline guns for greater concentration, like the P38. Without the threat of head ons or collisions, it was common in AW to merge head on. Players were not expecting a cheep shot in the face. I'm not saying this was good... just the way it was. AH certainly provides a superior encounter.

(2) Perhaps the biggest reason head ons were reviled is that it marked the opponent as a rookie. The time wasted for a face shot is critical for setting yourself up for your initial maneuver. The face shot was especially silly in AW with its reduced affectiveness and signaled an easy victory. In AH it may not be as silly, but IMHO is an act of desperation.

Being reviled and humiliated was one of the very best incentives in AW to learn ACM and comply with community standards. Except for a few basic requirements, like not being able to kill friendlies, our game is presented to us without any rules. So acceptable conventions and game play must be applied by the players, and humiliation is our only means of inforcement.


I don't think I understand, either, Grizzly. Doesn't make any sense to me at all. :eek:

1: HOs can be avoided .... easily.

2: Not avoiding a HO then getting on channel 1 to berate the guy who won the "joust" is only whining poorly disguised as an attempt to humiliate the other player (probably to disguise one's own embarrassment more often than not). Avoiding an HO .... then successfully saddling up on you opponent and shooting them down ... then getting on channel 1 to attempt to ridicule and embarass them for not being as good at playing AH as you are ... is nothing but childish chest-beating.

If you feel revulsion about any element of the game that doesn't violate TOS (or is even encouraged by the design and layout of the game) ... then that's not the other guys problem ... it's yours. And it certainly isn't his fault, other than his taking advantage of what's there to freely take advantage of. If you feel the desire to humiliate anyone in AH for using tactics (or their limited use of tactics), for their skill (or limited amount of skill, for their score (or lack of score) ... even for their approach to the game (be it an active attempt to mimic real life acm or taking advantage of whatever gamey aspects of the game that were incorporated for "game playability") ... then that's not the other guy's problem either ... again, it's yours.

Maybe "revulsion leading to ridicule leading to shame leading to everyone playing the way the loudest barker wants them to" is part of the AW heritage you remember, Grizzly ... but I don't remember it that way, myself. Then again, my memory ain't what it used to be. ;)

Sorry, bro. That's how I honestly feel. The only revulsion I have is for hacks.

Offline sling322

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The Urge to Merge..F6F drivers..
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2003, 05:30:37 PM »
Like I said....."as I understand it".  I never played AW.  I know I have just heard folks mention that HO shots over there didnt do damage.  Whatever.

As far as being reviled by the community.....I guess I can be reviled.  When I first started playing AH back in 2000 I was told that people frowned on HOs and vulching and chute shooting.  So I avoided all 3.  About 2 weeks later after getting blasted out of the sky everytime someone pointed their nose at my nose, I started shooting back.  You learn to adapt.  Its all sounds fine to take the moral high ground and turn your nose up at the HO but sooner or later you learn to avoid it or you learn how to shoot back.

As for the vulching and chute shooting....well I soon discovered that those were just fun.

:D

Online Shane

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The Urge to Merge..F6F drivers..
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2003, 08:24:26 PM »
arlo, stop encouraging people to be as sucky as you.

:cool:
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2003, 08:46:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shane
arlo, stop encouraging people to be as sucky as you.

:cool:


Better than strokin' it in public 24/7. ;)

Online Shane

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The Urge to Merge..F6F drivers..
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2003, 09:07:47 PM »
well, if that's what you think you'd do best.. who am i to stand in the way?
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline Arlo

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The Urge to Merge..F6F drivers..
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2003, 09:23:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shane
well, if that's what you think you'd do best.. who am i to stand in the way?


Peewee Herman "I know you are but what am I?" variation #12? ;)

Offline MANDOBLE

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Re: The Urge to Merge..F6F drivers..
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2003, 07:03:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
What's your first move on the merge, assuming you don't go for a head on?

How does one change this opening move when faced with a spitfire?


1 - First move: Dive below him and then check what the dweeb do.

2 - The spit will beat you in the vertical and horizontal fight, so you better dive below him and keep extending. If the spit do the typical retarded break flat turn, try to zoom up after the dive (but more than probably you will be hispanosprayed from 700 yards and kilt).

Offline SLO

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« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2003, 09:57:06 AM »
wanna learn 1on1 HellCat go to the DA......

then come back in MA too learn better SA......cause your DA exp. will mean Dick if your SA sucks:D

damn alot of A's:p

oh btw no1 mentioned F6F can out roll La7 or spit....keep tight turns Vs. La7......just be careful with spit.....best is overshoot move.

Offline DmdNexus

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« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2003, 12:31:49 PM »
AW had HOs enabled early on - in the 80's.
Which made the Doras and the D8s HO queens.

Then at one point they were reduced to 25% chance shots, and then eventually removed all together.

Sure HOs are legit shots... and when there's no E left, fighting multiple bandits... on the deck... take every shot presented - even a HO - might get lucky.

However, in a 1 v 1 situation, HOs are not always the best choice for "winning" the fight.

Sure I take HOs and win more than I loose. Perhaps becuase I fly and aim towards a wing tip rather than a cowling.

Offline Grizzly

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« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2003, 05:18:55 PM »
In response to Mathman, Steve, Sling and Arlo.

I was relating the way it was in AW. I did not make it that way. Arlo, if you do not remember head ons and other such things being ridiculed in AW, you weren't playing the AW I was. In fact, I've broken up many fights caused by a player complaining that he had called "bingo ammo" but someone shot him down instead of letting him RTB. Can you imagine that in AH? What I said about AW isn't my opinion, just the way it was as I saw it, Kesmai designed it , and Blue Baron preached it (Of Shame and Glory). Come on Arlo... reduced hits on head ons? It's reality check time.

If any want my opinion, it is that not allowing head ons removes a large dimension from the game. And the guy who got HO'd is at fault, because he allowed the other guy to do it. If anyone gets a face full of lead, he deserves it. He shouldn't be flying directly into someone's guns but setting up his opening move. To those who don't agree with me, it's your dime. =o/

Now, let's get back to the thread topic.